Edward Snowden makes the best rebuttal to “I have nothing to hide”

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Sunday March 27, 2016 · 7:34 PM PDT

2016/03/27 · 19:34

In May of last year, in a Reddit “ask us anything” with Jameel Jaffer of the ACLU, Edward Snowden introduced a compelling and epigrammatic rejoinder to the “nothing to hide” argument, which is so common in the debate on NSA mass surveillance:

“Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say.”

Snowden elaborated on this statement in a panel discussion on privacy with Noam Chomsky and Glenn Greenwald this past Friday, and his words, printed below, deserve attention. Snowden isn't making the mistake of insisting that everyone does, in fact, have things to hide, and therefore a direct self-interest in opposing mass surveillance. Although it's true that we all instinctively value privacy, and routinely take all sorts of measures to protect it, there are apparently many people (and here) who feel they have nothing to hide from the government specifically. This is the meaning that's implicit in the claim that one has nothing to hide when it's made in the context of the debate on NSA surveillance. The claim does not imply that one would be willing to reveal their personal information to anyone or everyone. (Benjamin Wittes does a good job making this point here. Also, for examples, see these two comments in the same Reddit thread.) So, it is useless to respond to the claim that one has “nothing to hide” by insisting that it’s false. As it's intended, the claim is actually true for most of us. Snowden is taking an entirely different approach, and it's one that could possibly succeed.

The full discussion can be seen here. Snowden is responding to a question that was posed at 23:03. His answer begins at 32:55. The following excerpt begins at 35:52.

Edward Snowden: And when I sort of follow this [the meaning of “privacy”], and I think about this in my own terms – particularly when we're confronted with the arguments of, sort of, apologists for the national security state, and the argument that was first proposed by the Nazis against privacy, which was “if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear” – I would say that arguing that you don't care about privacy because you have nothing to hide is like saying that you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say. Rights exist and have value for more than just the individual in the current moment. Rights are both individual and collective. And when you think about the value of a free press, we're not all journalists, but we still derive value from them. Moreover, rights are not really intended, rights are not really designed for use by the elites, for people who are leading our debates, because these are the people who are least threatened with the abrogation of their rights. The system exists to serve and protect these people. Rights are almost always needed on a regular, continual basis by those who are vulnerable, by those who are not protected by the system, by those who are not protected by their communities, by the people who are different, by the people who are ahead of everyone else because of a new idea, or people who are simply minorities, who don't have access to the same resources, don't have access to the same ability to compete. And to say fundamentally that you don't care about a right – even if it is truly of no value to you, because you're not using it in this current moment and you don't expect to use it in the future – is probably the most antisocial thing I can imagine.

#Which DailyKos ? #WhichMarkos ?

Lisa Lockwood

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Tuesday March 15, 2016 · 9:52 AM PDT

2016/03/15 · 09:52

Markos threatens "Ides of March" 2016 primary banhammer - So, I'm going to Caucus99Percent.com

Note- Leaving this one here for posterity. All other diaries are deleted by me, because the content is mine.

Hillary Clinton:

..."doesn't deserve fairness on this site" because she "fails the test of the guiding principles of this site"...

...may be the establishment's choice, but real power in the party has shifted...

The last thing we need in the White House is another out-of-touch, tone-deaf Bush-style presidency, unable or unwilling to admit mistakes and change course as a result.

Clinton's campaign is counting on low-information Democratic voters selecting Clinton based on little more than name ID. …. SNIP …..

Does she think her audience is that stupid? Apparently so.

And therein lie Hillary Clinton's biggest problems. She epitomizes the "insider" label

….SNIP….

She's part of the Clinton machine that decimated the national Democratic Party

….SNIP….

her advisers have stripped what personality she has, hiding it from the public

….SNIP….

what remains is a heartless, passionless machine, surrounded by the very people who ground down the activist base in the 1990s and have continued to hold the party's grassroots in utter contempt.

**~ Markos Moulitsas, Spring 2008 ~**

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Note: I’ve edited the quotes above (fair use policies, in re: WaPo) and added emphasis/italics to make a point.

The above quotes are what Markos said for public consumption back in ‘08. This is stuff he wrote, both here, and at WaPo, in the Spring of 2008, while the primaries were still hotly contested.

At the time, some Clinton supporters at daily kos were so incensed by Markos’ statements criticizing Hillary clinton, that they loudly, and very publicly (as in, made it to the pages of the NY Times! ) staged a ‘writers walkout’ (Markos called it a ‘boycott’).

NOTE: Markos did NOT threaten to ban them because they voiced loud opposition, they threatened to leave (and, in fact, some left) of their own accord.

----- It was a BIG DEAL here, and out in the blogosphere in general -----

“The comment board was shut down about 5.5 hours after it (the walk out declaration) was posted, with 1258 comments.”

(LINK to DIARY announcing the “Writers Strike” of the 2008 primaries. It’s worth reading, for the trip down memory lane, and the irony, if nothing else. The more things change, the more they stay the same? (Ahem, well, except for a major difference….Markos.))

Said a supporter of Markos, in response to the diary:

nothing has changed here (at daily kos)... in terms of tactics or tone. We've never pulled any punches here (at daily kos) when it comes to the centrists, the equivocators, the triangulators, the DLCers, and the Washington insiders. For Christsake, kos wrote a book about it. And the Clintons "wrote the book" on just those things we despise: equivocation, triangulation, the DLC, etc. …... snip...

The only difference is now we’re (at daily kos) attacking a candidate whom YOU feel strongly about.

Sorry. It happens. But if you don’t understand why we (at daily kos) dislike her, if you don’t understand that she stood opposed to the blogroots for years, that this community (daily Kos) grew into what it is today despite her, not because of her, then you’re right, perhaps this (daily kos) isn’t the blog for you.

You see, decentralized though we are (at daily kos), I’ve always felt that the vast majority of bloggers share a point of view. Out with the old way of doing politics, and in with the new. To many of us, Hillary Clinton, every bit as much as Joe Lieberman, typifies a wing of the Democratic party that is anathema, a wing that is responsible for the party’s downfall, and complicit with the rise of radical conservatism.

(I inserted “DAILY KOS” in parenthesis, for emphasis)

^^ Yep, what they said! ^^

~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----Ah, the way-back machine-----

Ironically, the comments in that diary are, in substance, identical to comments in present day Rox/Sux diaries. Only the names have been changed- Substitute “Obama” with “Sanders”, and “Hillary” with, um, well, “Hillary ”. There were/are slurs of “Obama Boyz” instead of “Bernie Bros”, and DLC Third Way, “low information voters”, and Establishment, etc etc etc.

-----Fast forward to March 2016-----

Daily Kos. Hotly contested primary. Sux/Rox diaries. Passionate supporters of one side or the other. Pie Wars. Meta. HR’s (Flags) fly. Same old same old. In fact, just Daily Kos being Daily Kos...

Full Stop … Wait ... There IS one big difference, this year!

Markos, the guy that owns this place, the guy who made those inflammatory, unflattering, and decidedly non-constructive statements about Hillary (as late in the primary as May, 2008) has decided, this time around, that on (~) March 15th, we have to to stop criticizing ONE candidate, Hillary Clinton, unless it’s intended to help make Hillary a better candidate, and further, we must unify behind a candidate who seems to falter a bit more with every passing day.

A candidate who, in spite of universal name recognition, overwhelmingly favorable media coverage, Party and celebrity endorsements, a professional political ‘machine’ years in the making, Millions and Millions of Super Pac $$$, and just about every other political advantage imaginable, has basically blown a huge early primary lead — and, to a virtually unknown Democratic Socialist from the small state of Vermont. No one could have imagined!!

Frankly, I don’t see how Markos calling Hillary Clinton any of the following:

‘a heartless passionless machine’ , who is

“out-of-touch, tone-deaf” and

whose “Presidency would be a Bush-style“ one, can be construed as “constructive criticism”.

Hillary, relying on “Low information Voters” ? … wait, I thought that was a scurrilous dog whistle for ‘not white’ ?!?!? …..

And honestly, how can blaming the Clintons for “decimating the national Democratic Party” be intended, in any way, shape or form, to ‘make her a better candidate’ ???

In point of fact, I’m guessing that all of those caustic, inflammatory and negative statements that were ok for Markos to make in 2008 will be Flaggable comments, starting tomorrow, march 15th, aka the ‘IDES OF MARCH’

AND, WE’RE only 1/3 of the way into the primaries!!!

Of course, ymmv. Or, more to the point, Markos’ mileage may vary.

As for me, well, I’ll just keep on feelin’ the Bern.

And yes, I know, it’s his blog.

And, evolving...

YouTube Video

Keep on truckin’

Cross posted at Caucus99Percent

Cross posted at Kossacks _For_Sanders reddit

If you like this, you can find more at Caucus99Percent.com, where I’ll be spending my time, now that the echo chamber is complete here.

How The Public Can Help Increase Good Cops In U.S. Law Enforcement Organizations

The Law Project

Community (This content is not subject to review by Daily Kos staff prior to publication.)

Saturday April 11, 2015 · 10:31 AM PDT

2015/04/11 · 10:31

"(W)ith people standing together . . . , the public can have a positive effect on increasing positive police action and good cops within the law enforcement system. And when that happens, good citizens and taxpayers win while unethical and biased behavior by law enforcement personnel, prosecutors, and judges lose."

Dr. Sandra Nunn, Former Federal Agent
and National Security Whistleblower

joe shikspack

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Tuesday November 11, 2014 · 7:35 AM PST

2014/11/11 · 07:35

There has been a lot of talk, now that the elections are over and the legislature has fallen into the hands of Republicans about what this will mean for President Obama's agenda and the Democratic agenda generally. This election season my inbox was full of Democratic politicians begging for money to foreclose the possibility of voters choosing the wrong party at the polls, yours probably was, too.

A persistent theme in these begging emails that I was getting was that the (evil) obstructionist Republicans have gummed up our system of government and the Democrats (the good guys) can't get anything done in order to enact Obama's agenda.

Looking at the accomplishments of Obama and the governing elites, this narrative, of course, is utter rubbish. The government is working. Obama and the Republicans have been cooperating all along. Great bipartisan advances and accomplishments are indeed being made.

So, what can we expect of this new aggregation of powers? Probably more of what it created before. Hence, let us review the accomplishments that these allegedly competing forces have created together...

slinkerwink

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Thursday November 06, 2014 · 11:02 AM PST

2014/11/06 · 11:02

The fallout from the elections has been severe with a complete GOP takeover of the Senate, and state legislatures across the country. Our party lost, and there were many reasons, but the most glaring one is that there was a complete LACK of messaging that spoke to people's interests. When people really don't know what the Democratic Party stands for as a whole, they're not going to be invested in the party itself, and that's a fact.

Some may dispute that fact, but the reality is that we cannot trust the Democratic Party, especially the leaders in D.C., to do the messaging right. They're not there on addressing messaging around these big ticket items that surely will be on people's minds going into 2016:

Student loan debt
Lack of wage parity
Maternity leave
Family-friendly policies
The environment
Wall Street accountability

bobswern

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Friday September 05, 2014 · 10:47 AM PDT

2014/09/05 · 10:47

Apparently, today is “the day” where, once and for all, the public becomes privy to the greater facts about U.S. government double-speak concerning corporate “personhood” and we’re informed, as a country, that—a topic about which many have written for many centuries—our government’s ongoing war-planning efforts are primarily focused upon supporting the welfare and blatantly enriching the bottom lines of America’s largest corporations. Period.

Based upon articles published by Marcy Wheeler (with a big assist from Kossack joanneleon) and Glenn Greenwald over the past few hours, it would appear that our country’s military-industrial-surveillance complex has abandoned all moral pretenses when it comes to legitimizing why it must plan for war.

Finally, the truth goes mainstream––well, at least in the blogosphere…

The U.S. Government’s Secret Plans to Spy
for American Corporations
By Glenn Greenwald
The Intercept
09/05/2014 6:47 AM

Throughout the last year, the U.S. government has repeatedly insisted that it does not engage in economic and industrial espionage, in an effort to distinguish its own spying from China’s infiltrations of Google, Nortel, and other corporate targets. So critical is this denial to the U.S. government that last August, an NSA spokesperson emailed The Washington Post to say (emphasis in original): “The department does **not** engage in economic espionage in any domain, including cyber.”

After that categorical statement to the Post, the NSA was caught spying on plainly financial targets such as the Brazilian oil giant Petrobras; economic summits; international credit card and banking systems; the EU antitrust commissioner investigating Google, Microsoft, and Intel; and the International Monetary Fund and World Bank. In response, the U.S. modified its denial to acknowledge that it does engage in economic spying, but unlike China, the spying is never done to benefit American corporations.

Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, for instance, responded to the Petrobras revelations by claiming: “It is not a secret that the Intelligence Community collects information about economic and financial matters…. What we do not do, as we have said many times, is use our foreign intelligence capabilities to steal the trade secrets of foreign companies on behalf of—or give intelligence we collect to—U.S. companies to enhance their international competitiveness or increase their bottom line...”

The Intercept article references a document obtained by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: a "secret 2009 report issued by Clapper’s own office," titled "2009 Quadrennial Intelligence Community Review," which "explicitly contemplates doing exactly that." Described by reporter Glenn Greenwald as a "fascinating window into the mindset of America’s spies as they identify future threats to the U.S. and lay out the actions the U.S. intelligence community should take in response. It anticipates a series of potential scenarios the U.S. may face in 2025, from a 'China/Russia/India/Iran centered bloc [that] challenges U.S. supremacy' to a world in which 'identity-based groups supplant nation-states,' and games out how the U.S. intelligence community should operate in those alternative futures—the idea being to assess 'the most challenging issues [the U.S.] could face beyond the standard planning cycle.'"

...One of the principal threats raised in the report is a scenario “in which the United States’ technological and innovative edge slips”— in particular, “that the technological capacity of foreign multinational corporations could outstrip that of U.S. corporations.” Such a development, the report says “could put the United States at a growing—and potentially permanent—disadvantage in crucial areas such as energy, nanotechnology, medicine, and information technology.”
How could U.S. intelligence agencies solve that problem? The report recommends “a multi-pronged, systematic effort to gather open source and proprietary information through overt means, clandestine penetration (through physical and cyber means), and counterintelligence” (emphasis added). In particular, the DNI’s report envisions “cyber operations” to penetrate “covert centers of innovation” such as R&D facilities…

Excerpt from secret 2009 report issued by Office of Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) James Clapper, titled "2009 Quadrennial Intelligence Community Review," that "...envisions 'cyber operations' to penetrate 'covert centers of innovation' such as R&D facilities..." (CREDIT: Office of the Director of National Intelligence via The Intercept, 9-5-14).

But, today's news doesn't stop there. In fact, as Marcy Wheeler notes below the orange squiggly, it's morphed into something that's even more surreal...

bobswern

Community (This content is not subject to review by Daily Kos staff prior to publication.)

Tuesday June 10, 2014 · 11:52 AM PDT

2014/06/10 · 11:52

Al Gore at Southland, earlier today...

http://youtu.be/...

Read More

During Intel Cmte Hearing, DoJ Admits to Sen. Warner That USA Freedom Act Expands Surveillance

bobswern

Community (This content is not subject to review by Daily Kos staff prior to publication.)

Friday June 06, 2014 · 6:02 AM PDT

2014/06/06 · 06:02

News for the reality-based crowd, today—which is also the first anniversary of the Edward Snowden NSA document leaks--from over at the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) hearing on S. 1599/H.R. 3361, a/k/a “The USA Freedom Act,” compliments of author, journalist and blogger Marcy Wheeler…

Mark Warner Confirms USA Freedumber Expands Surveillance
Published June 5, 2014 | By emptywheel

…Warner (who used to be a telecom mogul) got the government witnesses to concede to two key points.

First, Warner noted that under the new scheme, every telecom would be subject to government requests. As a result, he said, “On factual basis, the number of calls scrutinized universe will be exponentially larger.” Deputy Attorney General James Cole at first tried to prevaricate. But then admitted that more records would be exposed.

Then, Warner noted that telecoms have to keep cell location, and that the current Section 215 program does not obtain cell location. He asked if the NSA could use or obtain cell location going forward. Cole did not deny that; he admitted that sometimes it is very helpful.

Thanks to Mark Warner for getting these two details on the record, as I have been arguing both were true, but now can confirm they are.

bobswern

Community (This content is not subject to review by Daily Kos staff prior to publication.)

Monday April 28, 2014 · 5:41 PM PDT

2014/04/28 · 17:41

The following post from journalist Trevor Timm, in his role as a Board Member of the Freedom of the Press Foundation, is covered under the Creative Commons 4.0 International License.

Fact-Checking Hillary Clinton's Comments About Edward Snowden and the NSA
By Trevor Timm
Freedom of the Press Foundation
April 28, 2014

Hillary Clinton made her first extended public remarks about Edward Snowden late last week, and unfortunately she misstated some basic facts about the NSA whistleblower and how events have played out in the last year. Here’s a breakdown of what she said and where she went wrong:

Clinton: "If he were concerned and wanted to be part of the American debate, he could have been… I don't understand why he couldn't have been part of the debate at home."

This is one of the biggest misconceptions about Snowden that even NSA reform advocates have furthered. Edward Snowden could not be part of this debate at home, period.

First, as Pentagon Papers whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg explained in the Washington Post, Snowden would likely be in a maximum security prison right now if he remained in the United States, unable to speak to the media. Second and more importantly, Snowden would likely be barred from making any of arguments claiming he was a whistleblower during his trial, since the government is charging him under the draconian Espionage Act of 1917. As we have pointed out repeatedly, lower court rulings in other cases against leakers have prevented defendants from telling a jury about their intent to inform the American public, the lack of harm their leaks caused, and the benefits to society. The government even tried to bar NSA whistleblower Thomas Drake from mentioning the words “whistleblower” or “First Amendment” during his trial.

Simply put, it would be impossible for Edward Snowden to participate in an informed debate in the public or the courtroom if he was in the United States.

(continued below) Read More

FBI Abruptly Walks Out of Grassley/Leahy Briefing on 'Insider Threat Program'

LieparDestin

Community (This content is not subject to review by Daily Kos staff prior to publication.)

Thursday April 17, 2014 · 3:47 PM PDT

2014/04/17 · 15:47

When launched there were many concerns about the administrations 'insider threat program'. Not only was it overly intrusive into the lives of government workers, it fostered a climate of paranoia:

Even before a former U.S. intelligence contractor exposed the secret collection of Americans’ phone records, the Obama administration was pressing a government-wide crackdown on security threats that requires federal employees to keep closer tabs on their co-workers and exhorts managers to punish those who fail to report their suspicions.
President Barack Obama’s unprecedented initiative, known as the Insider Threat Program, is sweeping in its reach. It has received scant public attention even though it extends beyond the U.S. national security bureaucracies to most federal departments and agencies nationwide, including the Peace Corps, the Social Security Administration and the Education and Agriculture departments. It emphasizes leaks of classified material, but catchall definitions of “insider threat” give agencies latitude to pursue and penalize a range of other conduct.

Some non-intelligence agencies already are urging employees to watch their co-workers for “indicators” that include stress, divorce and financial problems.

The Law Project

Community (This content is not subject to review by Daily Kos staff prior to publication.)

Tuesday April 15, 2014 · 5:34 PM PDT

2014/04/15 · 17:34

The April 4, 2014 decision by Tennessee's Consumer Assistance Program in cases 14000431-14000433 is reason to celebrate!

bobswern

Community (This content is not subject to review by Daily Kos staff prior to publication.)

Thursday April 10, 2014 · 7:56 AM PDT

2014/04/10 · 07:56

Edward Snowden provided more than a half-hour’s worth of truly stunning testimony to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE), in Strasbourg, France on Tuesday, only a few details of which made it through to the general public via the mainstream media; and, then only via a handful of media outlets, most of which are not even based in the United States.

What was widely reported from the event were the many statements made by Snowden regarding how the National Security Agency has been spying—and continues to do so--upon human rights groups, throughout the world, including right here at home.

More about those aspects of Snowden’s statements on Tuesday, plus significant and (and, yes, I'm going to use the word again) stunning info about what was not widely reported (from TechDirt's Mike Masnick, the Guardian's Luke Harding, Marcy Wheeler and yours truly) farther below the complete, 35-minute video of Snowden’s testimony, via RT.com and YouTube (many copies of this have appeared online in the past 12+ hours), that is available immediately below…

http://youtu.be/...

# # #

Kossack Mark Lippman notes in the comments that the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) has posted their own video of Ed Snowden's commentary (it's not provided in a format which may be embedded in this post) at their meeting on Tuesday, and it's available via this link: http://clients.dbee.com/...

As Mark notes, the video is more than twice as long (1:18:00) as the YouTube video I've posted here, and that's because, "There's more content after the point where the RT.com version ends. What comes next is a few Parliament members speaking and there's some Q&A for Snowden that goes on till the end." So, just click on the link at the end of the preceding paragraph, and you'll be enabled to view the entire PACE program.

# # #
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Edward Snowden makes the best rebuttal to “I have nothing to hide”

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