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View Diary: Judge calls a 13-year-old "predatory" after she was raped by a 41 year-old. (278 comments)

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  •  Girls who look like women aren't asking for rape (32+ / 2-)

    My daughter in Telluride

    In 1992 I had to go overseas for a while and around the holidays I let my 15 year old daughter go visit my 50 year old brother in Telluride for a bluegrass concert.

    Brother Dan

    Being a  recently divorced womanizing ski bum with a lot of issues at the time, he took her to a bar, let her get drunk with him, had sex with her and then told her he was helpless to resist because she was beautiful. It was 2009 before she could even tell me it happened. Its hard for me not to feel guilty about it because I gave him credit for being an adult. Despite the smirk I think its hard for him to come to grips with what he did also.

    Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

    by rktect on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 07:50:35 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

      •  Sadly, rape often occurs in families, in secret. (20+ / 0-)

        We need to make people aware by exposing those secrets.

        "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

        by Lily O Lady on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 09:33:18 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's altogether possible to bring stories like (15+ / 0-)

          this into the open without the use of photographs of the victim. Telling the story without a picture is NOT keeping a secret that shouldn't be kept. I got the story from the text and I venture that others did as well. I didn't need the photo to understand anything at all about the story and I agree with those who say the pictures should come down.  They constitute a real violation of the victim's privacy -- indeed adding another violation to the original.

          The good we secure for ourselves is precarious and uncertain, is floating in mid-air, until it is secured for all of us and incorporated into our common life. Jane Addams

          by Alice Olson on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 09:54:53 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree that photos are a bad way to go. The (9+ / 0-)

            stories need to come to light, not the faces.

            "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

            by Lily O Lady on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 10:17:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  The perpetrator's privacy, right? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            brasilaaron, Black Max

            And we should be concerned about that because?

            Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

            by MichaelNY on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 12:54:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  keeping a secret that shouldn't be kept (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Black Max, radical simplicity

            is a big part of the horror of this situation.

            There is no question that a child victim of such a crime has a diminished capacity to themselves give consent  to any relationship, especially one with a charming and dashing uncle with whom infatuation and escalations of secrecy and intimacy proceeded over time. A parent has to be supportive for as long as it takes no matter what but there are many layers of betrayal here.

            Naturally the right to the privacy and secrecy of a child has some conflict with parental responsibilities for supervision.

            You give your child certain standards and rules as they grow that you expect become good horse sense or at least common sense. Perhaps it is the child's natural role to test the limits of its boundaries and in so doing to make some obvious errors from which over time you expect them to learn.

            Parental responsibilities for supervision  have some diminished capacity as regards the naivety of trust in a fraternal bond but add to that a beautiful, well spoiled child's ego and the final key to the puzzle is best expressed by looking her in the eye, hence the photo.

            Anything less is in this instance, societally a part of keeping a secret that shouldn't be kept.

            Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

            by rktect on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 01:18:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I can't see how it violates the victim (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Calfacon

            to show a pic of her uncle. I'd understand (but not sure I'd agree) if you argued it violated that man's privacy but not hers. Saying she was raped is her privacy but we don't know who she is and can't extrapolate that from the reported rapist's pic.

            I understand the desire to out this guy.

            •  I think this is not appropriate.... (0+ / 0-)

              If it were the daughter, it would be different.  

              You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

              by murrayewv on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 04:49:26 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  What is an appropriate response to a rape? (0+ / 0-)

                The incestuous rape of a child where the rapist convinces the child that its all their fault  so that they have to try to hold it in and deal with it on their own and keep it all secret until its too late to do anything about it legally is an unthinkable unspeakable outrage.

                There is a life of its own to the outrage, its like a wave of disease that follows a disaster. People get sick and die of it.

                Support for the victim has to come first but maybe there is more to it than that. Its a crime which has no statute of limitations, for which it can be hard to find forgiveness even though the perpetrator is also a part of the family.

                Are there some obligations on the family to bring closure? Should we investigate, even if we can't incarcerate? Do more than provide swift justice with rage and violence?  Is it necessary so we may heal as a family to take our time to work a proper vengeance with whatever punishment is due for the offender?  

                We shunned my brother, took his family from him, asked that he make a sincere apology to receive forgiveness, we still feel the pain more than he does.

                Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

                by rktect on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:00:57 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  wtf? outing a rapist not ok, outing a rape victim (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Aurora Moon

                IS ok?

                Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, murrayewv????????

                LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 08:54:00 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  Re (13+ / 0-)

      Is there a good reason why you are posting these photographs? I suggest you take them down from the photo hosting site. This is very private personal stuff and there is no way to verify that what you are saying is true.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 08:46:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The photos illustrate the problem well (6+ / 0-)

        Maybe things like this that affect a family for a lifetime ought to be shared so that other people know they aren't the only one it has happened to.

        I told my brother I would try to forgive him if he made a sincere apology to my daughter and took responsibility for what he had done. So far he hasn't, but I know that he does monitor my posts here and perhaps will feel called upon to comment as you have.

        Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

        by rktect on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 08:57:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You should take them down (11+ / 0-)

          Telling a story is one thing, but posting real pictures of real people and telling private sexual things about them is extremely irresponsible behavior. If you want to post a link to a news story or something, that's one thing. But these pics are beyond the pale, you should take them down. DKos isn't your personal vendetta.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 09:05:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Why so defensive? (9+ / 0-)

            Keeping secrets like this one doesn't help anyone heal or stop it from happening to someone else.  She gave her brother an opportunity to redeem a small piece of himself and he didn't take her up on it.  Maybe making this incident public will force him to own his disgusting behavior.  Child predators deserve no respect or privacy.

            •  How do you know he's a child predator (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sponson, rktect

              For all we know, the picture here is of a guy who quit Scientology and this is blackmail.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 09:37:04 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  It's not the predator I'm worried about; (13+ / 0-)

              the daughter has the right to privacy, especially under such awful circumstances--and unless the parent cleared this posting with her, I am a little horrified by such a blatant disrespect of that privacy.

              •  When my daughter was a child yes (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ceebee7, MichaelNY, FarWestGirl

                This took place more than twenty years ago, so I view it as having passed into the category of history rather than current events. We have been pretty supportive of her all this time but its hard to extend that to him.

                It first got posted here in 2010 and I have done my time in hell over it. Maybe somebody should address why victims of crimes have to fall back on privacy as a protection while over a period of decades being ashamed to come forward and tell their tale

                My daughter probably and my brother certainly would prefer it just all go away but it doesn't go away for her mother and I. Her mom's clinical depression and cancer, have been an ongoing reminder for us for years now

                I was also a little horrified by my brothers reaction which was essentially to want to just blow it off and move on, forgive and forget. I can't forget it, its a crime with no statute of limitations. We didn't prosecute him in any criminal court but the judgment of his family has been to shun him forever.

                  Dan's email  July 13, 2010

                I want to say, right off, that I’m sorry to have angered you so badly.  I wrote to ___ and told him I am very sad to lose all contact with my family, I care about you all a great deal.  Mistakes in my past cannot be undone and these days I try to live my life with whatever level of integrity and judgment I can summon.  Your right, I have hurt some people and done some things I’m not proud of, I have to live with all that. I would like my brother to be a supportive and inspiring person in my life, and you would probably like the same from me. Maybe we still have time.

                As to my whereabouts being unknown to you, I have been getting mail, receiving phone calls and email at the same locations I was when you last sent me a Christmas package. I must admit I haven’t felt much like calling much since you published your list of accusations on your blog. We need to move on.

                This week I am moving and will no longer get mail in Las Vegas so I wanted you to have that address.  I follow your writings on Daily Kos and have a good sense of what your doing and whats going on with the farm and family. You seem to be enjoying your country life. Congratulations on becoming a grandparent.

                Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

                by rktect on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 10:33:14 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Um (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MichaelNY

            1) As a long time site user, you know that's not possible, since people can't delete comments.

            2) Since it's his/her daughter rktect probably knows better than you do whether or not she's OK with having her photo posted.

            •  Re (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              falconer520

              He can take the photos down from imageshack or wherever.

              We have no way of knowing if this is a libelous frame job or not.

              This is not the place for this material.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 10:55:45 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I took down my daughters picture from image shack (4+ / 0-)

              I would like it if people who are victims of a crime like rape wouldn't have to do everything in their power to keep it a secret, and I'd like the point to be made that a child molester incestuously raping someone who has diminished capacity to give consent deserves very little in the way of privacy. Posting evidence of a rape is not quite the same degree of awful as the crime itself.

              Whenever I look at that photo with my daughter standing beside my brothers truck in front of a Telluride bar its as if a still picture becomes a storyboard for a scene in a movie and everything else that followed is captured in that instant. That's why I put it up.

              The nature of being ok with something implies informed consent without duress or diminished capacity. For children parent's and family have some responsibility to advise and consent but there is a point at which you have to be able to choose right from wrong for yourself. I don't think my brother has got there yet.

              Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

              by rktect on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 11:27:05 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I disagree: to hell with the bastard (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rktect, ceebee7, MichaelNY, Damnit Janet

            Why roll over?  Post his picture.

            Lefties, learn to fight.

          •  i take issue with one part of your comment (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Calfacon

            "posting private sexual things.."

            Raping his niece is not a "private sexual thing"...it makes it sound like what he reportedly did was as bad as having a kink or masturbating.

            He outed his bro as a rapist who sadistically traumatized and betrayed his niece who probably loved him. Discussion of the posting of the suspected rapist is valid I think.

            •  Re (0+ / 0-)
              Raping his niece is not a "private sexual thing"...it makes it sound like what he reportedly did was as bad as having a kink or masturbating.
              How do you know these people even exist?

              How do you know the girl in the pic is his daughter? How do you know the other guy is his brother? How do you know anything sexual happened between them other than the poster's say-so?

              How do you know this whole thing isn't just a smear campaign against the people in the pictures without a news report or some other corroborating source?

              God, people on here are so trusting and gullible. You know literally fucking nothing about anyone in question other than words on the screen by the poster, but you're perfectly happy to be judge, jury, and executioner.

              That's why personal information of this nature should never be discussed on this site. If there's a legit news report, fine, but otherwise you're just providing a forum for parties to libel each other.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 09:13:06 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  DON"T swear at me, and you mistake the point (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Aurora Moon

                anyway.
                I took issue with something very narrow--semantics that seemed to minimize rape in general. You said the diarist was "posting private sexual things.." No, he was posting about a rape of a young girl. "private sexual things" makes it sound like the guy in the diary was masturbating or having an affair or something innocuous.

                How you go from there to saying I was being judge, jury, executioner is beyond me...quite a leap, an you have to admit, illogical.

                In addition, do you don't seem to understand that many if not most of us here DO get anything on line may not be true. On DK, in diaries, we act AS IF in our comments. We give the benefit of the doubt for the purpose of commenting even though we may be thinking n the back of our minds that it may not be true. People here and also in other places online write about health problems, the deaths of spouses, money issues etc. ALL of these things could be lies. We act "as if" and give sympathy. This is no different

                Because we, or at least I, have no idea who the accused person is--I did NOT see any name or personal info so if it's there I just glossed over it and missed that. I did see a picture but I DON"T KNOW the guy in it so it means Nothing to me.

                Your accusations are very alienating. You sound like either the accused uncle OR some other guy who feels wrongly framed for a similar incident.

                You are alienating yourself with your accusations and forgetting how DK works. We are just taking the diary at face value...you project judge jury executioner on us while really we are just acting as if.

                I'm being generous in explaining how it is. Really I'm pissed for how disrespectful you are being. I'd considered hide rating you for saying "you know literally fucking nothing" but I don't know the hide rules and you seem so very upset it's not worth further issues with your or others if I do it wrong.
                Bub bye. Happy Thanksgiving.

              •  So I shouldn't discuss what happened to me? (0+ / 0-)

                I can post the sex offender registry--would that be enough?

        •  Fuck forgiveness. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Damnit Janet, rktect, FarWestGirl

          Why bother? There are some breaches of trust that are so awful, they don't deserve it. You should have prosecuted this guy.

          You're gonna need a bigger boat.

          by Debby on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 12:10:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I agree. Is rktect's "daughter" OK with having her (9+ / 0-)

        picture shown here considering the circumstances?

        His rktect's brother OK with having his picture shown here implicating him in a statutury rape charge?


        "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis Brandies

        by Pescadero Bill on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 09:28:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  gosh i can't begin to count the felonies here. (9+ / 0-)

      deliquency,
      ABC violations,
      statutory rape,
      Rape 3,

      Jeez.

    •  It would be very difficult for me.. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      thankgodforairamerica

      ... to not react in an irrationally violent manner if this were my brother and my daughter. You have my deepest sympathies.

      •  or rationally violent? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rktect, Aurora Moon

        "...i also also want a legally binding apology." -George Rockwell

        by thankgodforairamerica on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 03:50:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  We chose our justice as a family (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          thankgodforairamerica

          and we decided to shun him so he no longer has a family.
          Its not violent but it has the same effect as violence might. He tracks our presence on the web, puts up pictures of his memories of us on his own web sites.

          We did offer him an out. We told him that if he made a sincere apology we would consider tendering our forgiveness.  So far he hasn't taken that opportunity.

          There are also some civil lawsuits on unrelated matters that have dragged on since the matter surfaced allowing a death of 1000 cuts  for all of us with occasionally physical proximity and a chance to ask and answer unrelated questions in courtrooms.

          Its emotional for all of us.

          Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

          by rktect on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 04:38:48 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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