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View Diary: Ted Rall is a RACIST. Undeniable evidence (part1) (278 comments)

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  •  There may have been, but I didn't (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brecht, CenPhx

    see them. What I saw was an argument about whether he was drawing Obama as an ape rather than just taking his existing characteristics, and making an unflattering caricature.
    The other thing I saw was that anyone who disagreed with the "drawing Obama as an ape" opinion was a racist.

    I did see a couple of comments that tried to bring up the substance of the cartoon, rather than the caricature, so maybe they're the supporters.

    I reread the last portion of the diary, and I removed the hr because I think he finally made a point about the ape-like caricature. I don't think that case was made until then.
    I frankly glazed over that on first reading after he characterized the cat as a raccoon.

    My initial impression was that it was a suspicious diary that seemed to be putting Rall back in the spotlight, which is apparently where he wants to be.
    I didn't like the original cartoon about Afghanistan, but I thought the subject matter was fair game for the cartoonist to be going after. I saw nothing unequivocally "ape" in the caricature, and I didn't see any disparaging remarks about the Pres'. intelligence.
    After I saw  his website and Wikipedia, the other day, I confirmed my suspicion that he was an Obama hater. I think he's a libertarian type pandering to right wingers and trolling the left, esp. the antiwar left.
    I also suspected he probably was a racist. I didn't go over every entry either place.
    I think Rall probably loved the discord and division he was sowing here, and the notoriety for himself.
    I don't think Rall  has many supporters here, if any at all. I'd rather see this diarist not waste  his time  on another diary like this. Just let Rall disappear. If the diarist is legit in his concern, I think he will do that.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:53:12 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  This is what I saw too -- (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CenPhx, David54, Brecht, DeadHead

      Although I don't agree with the whole of your comment, I appreciate your posting this, which has been my experience too:

      What I saw was an argument about whether he was drawing Obama as an ape . . . .. The other thing I saw was that anyone who disagreed with the "drawing Obama as an ape" opinion was a racist.
      'It's a drawing of an ape or you're a racist,' is a very 'you're either with us or against us' mindset seems to have taken over the community and made a great many people unresponsive to reasoned debate.  We're capable of something better, less polarized, than that.  

      For example, what if the Warning had said:

      'Many members of our community are offended by what they perceive as a gorilla-like appearance in your drawings of President Obama'

      and

      'We understand that degrading images, some of them animalistic or simian, have been used as a weapon against POC and others in our history'

      and

      'We can understand that POC and others might see the drawings as racially offensive'

      and

      'As with sexism or disable-ism, the persons in the affected group have the right to have their feelings about offensive words, images, and actions respected'

      therefore

      'The dKos community will not permit words, images, or actions that offend portions of our community, so we can no longer allow your images of President Obama, as they are currently drawn, to be posted here at Daily Kos.'

      The same key result would have followed:  The offensive images would no longer have been posted here.  The violent and polarizing arguments of the last week would have been (at least) considerably lessened.  People who saw something other than a gorilla in the drawings, or otherwise 'defended' the cartoonist, would not be being called 'racists' by their fellow Kossacks -- and a great many more of those Kossacks would have been willing to support the spirit and letter of the Warning.

      Currently, this community is stuck in a tense and unsustainable divide.  No one should have to 'see the gorilla' in order to avoid the label 'racist'.  We're better than that -- I hope.

      •  Exactly (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CroneWit, David54, Brecht, DeadHead

        The exact same line that affected you both was the straw that broke the camel's back for me: "that anyone who disagreed with the "drawing Obama as an ape" opinion was a racist."

        I had to step away from DK at that point because the whole discussion was too toxic.

        I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said here, CroneWit. I only wish more eyes would see it. After talking a bit over at the Black Kos diary and seeing this discussion, I don't think there is as big a gulf between us as some of us fear.

        You see things; and you say “Why?” But I dream things that never were; and I say “Why not?” --George Bernard Shaw, JFK, RFK

        by CenPhx on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:46:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I genuinely hope the gulf can be breached (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          David54, CenPhx, Brecht, DeadHead

          In my youth, during the Civil Rights era, the young people in my small (and very white!) town were taught, by church groups, to engage in what was called 'inter-racial dialogue'.  The importance of listening with respect and communicating with fairness were modeled by the adults and the teens were expected to communicate in these ways, both during formal dialogues and in social settings with local Blacks (the preferred term then) and kids from the nearest city.

          Frankly, CenPhx, I have grave concerns about whether the dKos community will be able to heal from this.  Papering over the painful divisions will only cause the wounds to fester.  And (::sigh::) this community has been taught to fight, not to engage in transformative dialogue.

          This war had been running from Wed until late Sat night before I fell into it to discover that I was already among the class of 'racists'.  When I started reading the backlog of material (as well as what was continuing to be produced), I saw Kossacks who I knew (or thought I knew) and respected -- and yes, even some I have grown to love -- excorciating 'the racists on dKos', and knew they meant me.  Because I didn't see the gorilla.  I thought the drawing looked like Gerald Ford, silly blind old racist me!  And the fact that I made comments trying to express my view only provided 'proof' that I was one of the 'racists'.

          The polarizing language was built into the Warning itself -- this image is a gorilla, and it's racist.  Silly, foolish, blind, unconscious me . . . . I saw Gerald Ford, when I got around to looking, and I just couldn't see that as 'racist and derogatory'.

          I genuinely hope that productive, healing dialogue will ensue.  Otherwise, who knows what kind of a monster I might turn into, next time someone sees something I don't?

        •  I don't think there's a big gulf, but I do think (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CenPhx

          there are people trying to create a big gulf. I agree with you.

          You can't make this stuff up.

          by David54 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 06:13:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Excellent. In fact I think the cartoonist is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Brecht

        playing with boundaries precisely because he knows it will inflame controversy and create division. He's "way too clever" for  his own good.

        You can't make this stuff up.

        by David54 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 06:12:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

          •  How do you mean.? (0+ / 0-)

            I based my comment on the apparent fact that the cartoonist likes to inflame controversy.

            You can't make this stuff up.

            by David54 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 06:29:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Since your comment is attached to mine, (0+ / 0-)

              I wanted to make sure that your statement has nothing to do with what I wrote above.

              In your last two comments, you repeat several assertions about the cartoonist which have been common in the highly inflamed discourse of the last week.  I have no basis in fact on which to base an agreement with those assertions.  I do not see that gorilla, and do not want to be mistakenly identified as one who does.

              •  I agree with you, based on the original cartoon (0+ / 0-)

                controversy, but based on his wikipedia and his own website, I got the feeling that he was deliberately trying to inflame controversy.
                I didn't see "gorilla" in the original caricature, but looking at other stuff I can't say I have an "unequvocal" opinion of his objectives.

                You can't make this stuff up.

                by David54 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 07:23:00 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Pie-fights turn conversations into opposing camps, (0+ / 0-)

          so I recommend you for bringing different angles into the debate.

          I think there is some truth in your comment, but not how you intended it. I believe all this is happening at a deliberate but unconscious level in Ted Rall's mind. He's one of those provocateurs who has a really shrewd sense of how to push people's buttons, without plotting it all out.

          It was not a coincidence that Ted drew a cartoon in which Obama was teaching Hitler how to kill, or that Ted wrote an article in which he called Hillary Clinton "dumb" - he had gauged Daily Kos, and knew just what would rile us up.

          He's "way too clever", he's smug about that, and he's emotionally stunted and obtuse.

          "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

          by Brecht on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 07:48:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I still lack the information needed to (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Brecht

            form an opinion, but I appreciate your opinion, and the time and effort you spent in gathering material on which to base an informed opinion.

            I would also like to thank you for all your comments in this thread; they are excellent examples of reasoned discourse.

          •  I think you may be right about the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Brecht

            "deliberate but unconscious".
            When one is dealing with an equivocal situation and essentially 'reading someone's mind" it's hard to get the language exactly right.

            However, there's not much "equivocal" about "teaching Hitler to kill".

            I do think there's evidence that Rall judged his affect and tweaked his images accordingly, mainly to sow discord. I'm not going to go back to his website to find the quote, though.

            Your last sentence sums it up. It's why "wisdom" is unattainable for him.

            You can't make this stuff up.

            by David54 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 06:38:13 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

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