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View Diary: The Fight Was Lost When Obama Was In Law School? (217 comments)

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  •  from just this morning: (0+ / 0-)

    "I'm Black and I'm proud, I'm ready, I'm hype, plus I'm amped/ most of my heroes don't appear on no stamp!" ~Carlton Ridenhour

    by mallyroyal on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 07:51:34 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I was talking about a pattern from (3+ / 0-)

      aides to the President.  Emmanuel's comment is one of them.

      I did not see an "insult" that was not there.

      In any event, your comment is more about me than my diary's content.  I overthought just like the retard insult, etc.  

      Why not just state your position without attacking me?

      The American people must wise up and rise up!

      by TomP on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 08:19:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I did state my position. my position is that you (0+ / 0-)

        overthought a benign comment and built a diary around it.

        "I'm Black and I'm proud, I'm ready, I'm hype, plus I'm amped/ most of my heroes don't appear on no stamp!" ~Carlton Ridenhour

        by mallyroyal on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 08:28:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your position is what. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cybrestrike, itsbenj, NyteByrd1954

          That the comment is correct?

          That we lost the battle for public opinion years ago?

          Do you agree?

          Or you could agree with the comment and argue that Obama is correct in his tactics.

          There are a  range of possible reactions, and many allow you not to criticize Barack Obama.

          Just because I don't like it does not mean it's wrong.   the "pragmatists" argue Obama is right to compromise because that is all that is possible.  That he gets good deals.  You coudl argue that.

          Or is it that the comment is meaningless?

          Is that your position?  That it should be completely ignored?

          The American people must wise up and rise up!

          by TomP on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 08:37:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I believe the comment is correct, but I don't see (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TomP, lordcopper, CornSyrupAwareness

            it the same way you did.  I've been discussing the messaging war for some time, usually in the context of blasting kossacks on their perception of same.  the comment under discussion is reflecting what I've been saying for quite some time.  we've long lost it, but can gain it back, if we don't succumb to the easy emotional release of adding to the already existing negative chorus.

            and yes, I feel as though this is a tempest in a teapot.  I see far too many diaries that focus on this quote or that quote and (IMO) navel-gaze about political ideology when we're actually in a literal, no-bullshit war with Richard III style crazy people who are taking that war very seriously while we languish in the tower like Edward V, waiting for murder.

            I'll ignore your crack about my criticisms.

            "I'm Black and I'm proud, I'm ready, I'm hype, plus I'm amped/ most of my heroes don't appear on no stamp!" ~Carlton Ridenhour

            by mallyroyal on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 08:46:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mallyroyal

              I disagree with a lot, such as this:

              we've long lost it, but can gain it back, if we don't succumb to the easy emotional release of adding to the already existing negative chorus

              If the comment is correcrt, we cannot gain it back.

              I'll disregard this also:

              I see far too many diaries that focus on this quote or that quote and (IMO) navel-gaze about political ideology when we're actually in a literal, no-bullshit war with Richard III style crazy people who are taking that war very seriously while we languish in the tower like Edward V, waiting for murder.

              In the end, we just will disagree on many things.

              I'm glad we can do so with relative civilty.

              Take care.

              The American people must wise up and rise up!

              by TomP on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 08:50:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  wait. why do you say this? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TomP
                If the comment is correct, we cannot gain it back.

                "I'm Black and I'm proud, I'm ready, I'm hype, plus I'm amped/ most of my heroes don't appear on no stamp!" ~Carlton Ridenhour

                by mallyroyal on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 08:52:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Because I read it as saying (3+ / 0-)

                  that the battle over government was lost years ago.  That the best we can do is to nibble around the edges, maybe use gov't occasionally, but we should not even bother to try to convince people that gov't can be a force for good.  Thus, we must argue in anti-statist terms for what little we can get.

                  Now others may see it differently, but my take is that we don't try to change the narrative.  It's not a lecture (or whatever he said).  

                  My view is no change we desparetely need will be possible until we change the narrative, until we convince enough folks that gov't is one of the few counterweights to private economci power, that gov't provides real services we all need, and that we must pay for what we get.  That means paying taxes is patriotic.  We may not like it, but we need it.  Thus, we do want balanced budgets (in time).  It's not that far from Obama's general principle of "shared sacrifice" or balance (although I would have more taxes), but it says we don't try to convince people because the battle is lost.

                  Not in a fundamental way.

                  If we lost the narative and they won't try to win it back, then what does anything done here matter.

                   

                  but can gain it back, if we don't succumb to the easy emotional release of adding to the already existing negative chorus

                  We cannot gain it back, positive, negative or indifferent.

                  Obama at his best, like in the Promise of America speech, was trying to change the narrative.

                  This is why I leave room for Obama not actually agreeing with this.

                  It is possible that Obama makes tactical decisions, but does not believe that battle for the narrative of America is lost.

                  It is possible that 2012 is all about that.

                  I used to argue with David M. that words matter.  That even if Obama's polcies were not so great, that when he defends fundemantal progressive vlaues (and he does at times, for example, the anti-Ryan speech), it makes a big difference long term.

                  So if this is the belief of the WH, it matters a lot to me.

                  I don't know.  That's why most of what I said in the diary was qualified.

                   

                  The American people must wise up and rise up!

                  by TomP on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 09:08:51 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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