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View Diary: Damn It. BooMan Rules. Know Your Enemies Indeed. (ACTION Diary) (331 comments)

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  •  I would agree with this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Imhotepsings
    But all these swooning savior-followers got their sense of self entangled with their false expectations about the guy, that when he didn't live up to them, they went crash! inside and turned against him viciously.  

    But that's not who the commenter was talking about..  He's talking about anger but I see alot of anger in what he says.

    But we want to get to the same place. We just disagree on the how. --mmacdDE

    by glynis on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 10:51:12 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, that is what I was talking about (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      G2geek, drnononono

      I go into detail in another post here, but yeah that is half of what I was talking about. People who really put some effort into supporting Obama's election campaign are now completely polarized. They either love him or they hate him. And they are going to be pretty nutso about it, either way.

      Am I angry? Yeah, a little. About as angry as I was at Clinton. But just as with Obama, I saw Clinton for what he was from the get go. A center right politician, someone who would have been very at home in the republican party of forty or fifty years ago. I did no work for Obama, I supported Hillary (not perfect, but with her, I was 100% certain of what I would be getting. Obama was, and still is in some ways, a cipher to me.) so I don't feel personally let down.

      •  I don't feel personally let down either (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek

        I neither love him nor hate him.  I tend to look at the overall environment he's operating in and see the constraints he has to navigate.  

        He's got a tremendous amount of pressure trying to keep this economy afloat and slowing down the Republican crazy train.  I think that's all he can do right now. Who knows if any other Democrat could do better?  It is what it is right now and we need to work with it and get back the House.  

        Wallowing in disillusionment or anger isn't productive or frankly good for one's own emotional well being.  

        I agree with Kevin Drum

        Conservatives have just flat out won this debate in recent decades, and until that changes we’re not going to be able to make much progress.

        This is why I blame the broad liberal community for our failures, not just President Obama. My biggest beef with Obama is the same one I had three years ago, namely that he’s never really even tried to move public opinion in a specifically progressive direction. But that hardly even matters unless all the rest of us have laid the groundwork. And we haven’t. Wonks, hacks, activists, all of us. We just haven’t persuaded the public to support our vision of government. Until we do, the tea party tendency will always be more powerful than we are.

        We have to stop expecting Obama to change the narrative by himself.  And we should be counter-messaging in the aftermath of this bill instead of falling into despair again that it isn't good and Obama sux.

        Republicans are crowing about how they got what they wanted.  Well the "wonks, hacks, activists, all of us" should be counter-messaging that this is what they want then the economic slide and unemployment we are despairing about belongs to them.

        BTW, I appreciate this respectful exchange.

        But we want to get to the same place. We just disagree on the how. --mmacdDE

        by glynis on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 12:15:54 PM PDT

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        •  Oh, but we HAVEconvinced them (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          G2geek, drnononono

          Just look at the poll numbers on, for instance the debt ceiling issue.  People wanted the government to raise taxes. Hell, a majority of republican voters wanted it. People do not want social security or medicare to even be up for debate. Citizens of this country were on the same page as us, and yet, somehow, even with overwhelming public support and control of the executive and half the legislative branches, we could not get what we wanted.

          It IS NOT the fault of progressive voters. We are not to blame here. People already agree with us, but that does not matter, even to elected members of our own party. They do what they want to do, they live in an echo chamber divorced from reality and make decisions based on what their good friends, the corporate lobbyists, tell them.

          Besides, is it too much to ask that leaders actually lead? Real leaders lead, they do not tell their followers to do it.

          Basically, we have three plausible narratives to choose from:

          One, Republicans are evil supervillains who always get their way because they are three steps ahead of us at all times

          Two, Democrats are hopelessly incompetent at getting what they want.

          OR

          Three: The majority of both Democrats and Republicans work for the corporations in a good cop/bad cop tag team, to defeat the will of the voters and enact the will of their corporate masters.

          Looks like you support the Republicans as evil supervillains storyline. Me, I'm leaning towards the third one.

          •  I'm more of a combination (0+ / 0-)

            of one and two.  And in that "Democrats" bucket I put more than just those who are elected.

            But we want to get to the same place. We just disagree on the how. --mmacdDE

            by glynis on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 01:28:09 PM PDT

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            •  Well, you know what they say: (0+ / 0-)

              "Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by idiocy."

              So, what exactly has changed from the days when we could get what we wanted? Think of all the, ah, progress that progressives have made., all the things that we wanted, and they vehemently did not, that we got. The eight hour day. Child labor laws. The weekend. Medicare. Social Security. Environmental protection laws. Desegregation and equal rights. Women's sufferage. Food safety laws. The list goes on. We used to be able to achieve things.

              So your theory about why we can no longer achieve things seems to be, the republicans got smarter and we got stupider? Okay, sorry, but we are reaching the point where it really can't be explained by idiocy. I'm going with malice. We, the people, have been sold out. That, to me, is the simpler explanation by far. Occam's razor says that when we don't know which among a number of equally probable explanations is correct, we guess the simplest one, as (barring other factors which we don't know) the simplest explanation has the least number of parts that could possibly be wrong, and thus is the most likely.

              "We got sold out" is pretty simple, and it has plenty of historical precedent. "We got stupider while they got smarter"is pretty complicated and requires a number of quite dexterous leaps of faith. I'm going with "We got sold out."

              •  my view (0+ / 0-)

                people got complacent.  They take it all for granted.  We thought we didn't have to continue to fight to keep the things we had because who in their right mind would want to go backward?  Well to our horror we find that the people who do want to go backward have been plotting and planning for years and just chipping away biding their time while we just lived off the fruits of the labor of those before us.

                And there's some really evil folks who don't care who they squash as long as they've got theirs.  Those of us on the left just don't have that level of malice and don't want to believe that others do because that's like surrendering to the dark side.  So we keep appealing to their better angels.  Because good always triumphs over evil, right?  (Actually, I think it does in the long term but it takes extraordinary persistence in the short term.)

                Being incompetent doesn't mean you're stupid.  It can also be from laziness.  Not willing to put in all the hard work that went into getting those things in the first place.  We are a society that wants everything now because everything changes so rapidly.

                Being lazy is pretty simple too.  And it's really easy.  It allows you to shift what needs to be done onto someone else because you don't know what to do and don't do the work to find out (or you just do the bare minimum).  And it also allows you to shift the blame onto others when you don't get what you wanted.  

                How easy is it to sign an online petition rather than go door to door and educate the people while you're getting their signature?  Which is more effective?  Which will have a more long lasting effect?  Which is more work?  

                I'm not saying not to sign that petition but if that's all you're doing then you're taking the easy route and deluding yourself into thinking you've accomplished something important.  

                Of course all of this is rank generalization on my part.  

                But we want to get to the same place. We just disagree on the how. --mmacdDE

                by glynis on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 02:32:25 PM PDT

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                •  We got complacent (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  drnononono

                  Okay, that's a good theory, one which also has historical precedent. But as Saul Alinsky said, the boss is the best organizer. He is, always, intent on taking away that which makes us complacent and comfortable. And, being what he is, he will always go too far, he will always try to put that last straw on the camel's back. And then comes the uprising.  But uprisings are dangerous, chaotic times, during which the wrong sorts of people often rise to the top. Look at the Soviet Union.

                  However, this does not really explain why we got complacent and our counterparts in, say, Europe did not. They still have an active and powerful left. How are we different?

                  •  well I think we are in chaotic times (0+ / 0-)

                    I've always said that if there's one thing you can count on with Republicans is that they will overreach.

                    And we are seeing mini uprisings in places like WI and MI.  I think the debt ceiling negotiation awakened more people to the evilness in the GOP.  Even the MSM and other  Republican hacks have been calling them out.

                    I don't know enough about European culture to say why we got complacent and they didn't.  That would make for a very good study.

                    But we want to get to the same place. We just disagree on the how. --mmacdDE

                    by glynis on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 03:03:05 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  That's not true. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          drnononono

          Progressive positions, especially on the economy, consistently poll well.

          So, it's not that we haven't convinced "people."  It's that we haven't convinced "Kevin Drum's friends."

          The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

          by Punditus Maximus on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 02:38:39 PM PDT

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          •  progressive positions polling well (0+ / 0-)

            isn't translating into votes for Democrats.  So obviously there is still a disconnect.

            But we want to get to the same place. We just disagree on the how. --mmacdDE

            by glynis on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 03:13:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's because dems have shifted to the right. (0+ / 0-)

              And someone who acts like a repub (austerity, deficits, shared sacrifice) vs. an actual repub = actual repub wins.

              The Dems are a messaging nightmare.  They try to appeal to both sides (corporate vs public) instead of stating concrete prog positions that the public will eat up.

              If this continues into 2012, Obama will probably win (the public does like him, he's "Presidential"), but the House and Senate could see more repubs.

              Pay very careful attention to Dems "campaigning".  If you end up voting for the "lesser of two evils", expect even more slippage to the right.

              "With great power, comes great responsibility" -Ben Parker

              by splintersawry on Wed Aug 03, 2011 at 03:55:15 PM PDT

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            •  That's because the voters are not the true (0+ / 0-)

              constituency of the Democratic Party.  Oh, occasionally there will be some flowery words, maybe a sternly worded letter or two; but, the Democrats know where their bread is buttered.  And they rely on the awful specter of more crazy Republicans being elected to motivate their base to vote--just like the Republicans rely on the specter of more tax-and-spend liberals to motivate their base to vote.  In reality the vast majority of the elected Members of Congress from both parties serve their corporate masters.  The rest is, as they say, mere kabuki, or sound and fury signifying nothing.

              That--and not some failure on the part of the activist left--is why majority support for progressive policies does not translate into legislation:  the corporate masters would turn off the spigot of cash.

              Just ask Alan Grayson.

            •  That's true. (0+ / 0-)

              Now, where could that disconnect be...

              The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

              by Punditus Maximus on Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 11:34:05 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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