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  •  do you read the comics? (18+ / 0-)

    They're frequently aimed at the targets you mentioned.  But Obama is the President of the United States, and as such a legitimate target of satire. As I've mentioned before, I understand that some readers here would prefer propaganda to satire, but that's not the job of any cartoonist worth his or her salt.

    Tom Tomorrow's most recent book is TOO MUCH CRAZY from Soft Skull Press.

    by Tom Tomorrow on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 07:43:35 AM PDT

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    •  keep it up...your work is the best!! (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      COBALT1928, ohmyheck, kurt, wonmug, neroden

      " I’d say we all better get used to eating beans and rice, taking a beating on pitted roadways, and getting felt up by security personnel at the airports as Obama uses terrorism scares to keep us all in line." Roger D Hodge

      by Muggsy on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 07:57:01 AM PDT

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    •  The legitimate target of satire (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jmrichardson, My Left Behind

      on a Democratic blog would be the enemies of Democrats, in my opinion.  I appreciate satire, I think it's a powerful tool in politics, I just don't understand why Markos would pay for a form of it which attacks our side.  But, heh, it's his money and he can spend it as he pleases.  

      •  what is this "our side" of which you speak? (9+ / 0-)

        The one where union teachers are demonized and told they have to "tighten their belts"?  The one where absolute economic illiteracy in the form of "we got to reign in these deficits to create jobs!" is promulgated?  The one where perfectly doable, pragmatic solutions to the shitstorm headed our way are ignored in favor of accommodation?

        •  By "our side" I mean the Democratic (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          My Left Behind

          side.   I'm a Democrat,  an activist in the Democratic  Party who came here six years ago to work with other Democrats to elect more and better Democrats.   The site has grown and changed since then but is still, I believe, putatively a Democratic site.  It's true that lately it's been overloaded with anti-Obama rhetoric but I expect that to subside as election season becomes full blown and even the malcontents awaken to political realities and get behind our President.  

          •  then you should take it up (5+ / 0-)

            with Markos.  He hired Tom and Jen.

            After the past 2 1/2 years, there are many of this site who question whether just having a D or an R next to one's name means automatic, kneejerk support.

            I certainly do not vote based on that simple criteria.  I am far from alone, based on the diaries and comments on this blog.

            "More and BETTER Democrats", right?  How do we make them abide by the Democratic Party Platform if we do not cticize them when they do not?  Or is the Party Platform just a bunch of words?

            Truth - that most inconvenient guest and always late to the party. ItsSimpleSimon

            by ohmyheck on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 09:03:37 AM PDT

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            •  There's nothing to take up with (0+ / 0-)

              Markos.  As I said previously, it's his money to spend as he pleases.  And, yes, I'm aware many here are not Democrats in the traditional sense.  As for party platforms, have you ever seen how they are created, how various interest groups compete to have their ideals and desires included?  So, no, they're not just a bunch of words, they do represent real principles, but basically they're a wish list, a statement of positions compiled by a committee whose members frequently have to make compromises - just as elected officials must do in the world of Realpolitik.

          •  They don't care, Lying eyes (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lying eyes

            By "our side," the sanctimonious Kossacks here mean something else entirely.  "Oh, but we don't live in your world, where everyone has a D or an R after their names!  We live in a world beyond, a far more advanced world!"

            They wouldn't give a shit if we were living through a McCain/Palin administration right now, because their little ivory-tower lives would be affected very little.

            I remember having to deal with all the Greens in 2000 who kept chanting that there was no difference between Bush and Gore.  I'm serious as a heart attack.

            Meanwhile, you are realistic enough to know that in the real world there is a D or an R after policymakers' names, and it makes a huge f@cking difference.

            •  Feel better now? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              neroden

              When you've got something better than labeling those who -- quelle horreur!  -- disagree with you regarding the POTUS's record and policies (imagine the chutzpah!) -- when you've got something better than labeling them "sanctimonious" dwellers in "ivory towers", and similar authoritarian you're-only-allowed-to-say-sunny-cheery-things-about-the-Leader rhetorical shit-throwing, then maybe you'll have a prayer of being taken seriously.

              •  I got something better (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Lying eyes

                How about you doing something useful instead of engaging in the Onanistic exercise of picking over the minutiae of every instance in which Obama has not governed as the progressive ideal?  Do you think he or his staffers actually pore over the diaries and comments here?  This is an echo chamber.
                And it's not only pointless, it's extremely bad advice as well.
                Obama is patiently reeling in the fish and everyone here is standing on the bank yelling at him to tug harder and jerk  on the line.
                And no one is telling you what you're allowed to say--that's an absurdly childish straw-man whine.

                •  As I already noted (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  neroden

                  you'll have a prayer of being taken seriously once you stop the puerile, uninformed ad-hominems such as "ivory tower lives", "sanctimonious", "don't give a shit",  and the like.  There's more than one way to send a message about what sorts of views are allowed, and your knee-jerk attacks upon those who post views contrary to your own uninformed beliefs speak volumes about what you believe is "allowed" discourse.

                  You seem to spend a whole lot of time posting in this "echo chamber" which makes your shit-throwing against those who do likewise, but don't happen to share your uninformed beliefs, ring hollow.

                  As to "doing something useful", you apparently haven't looked downthread lately.

                  What sorts of "useful" things have you been doing lately, trash-talker?

                •  And btw, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  neroden

                  To me, matters like this are not "minutiae".  But it speaks volumes that to you, apparently, it is.

                •  So assassination orders are minutiae to you? (0+ / 0-)

                  Well, I think we can be clear that you aren't a progressive.

                  You're also living in fantasyland.  What fish is Obama reeling in/  The one where he tanks the economy and becomes grossly unpopular?  Your analogy is just bizarre.

                  Read pp. 1-7 of Krugman's _The Great Unraveling_ (available from Google Books). NOW.

                  by neroden on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:52:20 PM PDT

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          •  Ah, you're a brainless loyalist, Lying eyes (0+ / 0-)

            You said it yourself.  Now get a fucking clue.  Here, we support the Democratic Party Platform and candidates who back it.

            Read pp. 1-7 of Krugman's _The Great Unraveling_ (available from Google Books). NOW.

            by neroden on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:50:57 PM PDT

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      •  It's my understanding that the cartoonists (6+ / 0-)

        by and large are not writing for 'our site'.  They're simply publishing their work to our site, the same as they would and do to any other newspaper or website that subscribes to them.  Markos could choose to get pay for Beetle Bailey or Marmaduke as well, I suppose.  

        Markos isn't hiring them to run pro-Democratic propaganda, merely to publish their cartoons, no matter what the context happens to be in a given cartoon.

    •  Satire can't be "pro," can it? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lying eyes

      I know, a pro-Obama cartoon just wouldn't work.  Satire needs a target, either a person or an absurdity of some kind.

      I love your work, Tom, (and I know that this is not your cartoon) and of course satirizing the minutiae of all the ways that Obama is not a perfect progressive president is all well and good.

      Personally however I think there are a lot more worthy subjects.  And I do have to admit that I am concerned about peer suggestibility.  Because for the most part, we're only talking to each other here.  

      And the context is that unfortunately, DKos has become in essence little more than an Obama-bashing contest in an echo chamber. Sound and fury signifying and achieving nothing.  It's become boring and wearying.  And I'm sorry, but I don't think Obama, or many policymakers at all, pore over progressive blog sites or cartoons.  So we're not going to affect policy this way.

      Art must be art, I know.  Satire is not funny if it's not true, which is why Republican "satire" sucks.  But to me satire is not funny if I end up asking myself, "Why?"  I know I'm sounding like I want to censor, or I'm afraid, but I'm not.  It's just that I'm decidedly goal-oriented, and I'm really really goddamned glad I'm not living through a McCain/Palin administration right now.

      Again, I love your work--when you attack the other guy!

      •  Thanks for that comment (4+ / 0-)

        I do appreciate the acknowledgement that "satire is not funny if it's not true."  Show me any successful, liberal cartoonist or political humorist, and I will point you toward the subset of their work which deals with the current President.  That's just how it works -- that's what we do.  To paraphrase Bierce, cartoonists are the reprobates who insist on seeing the world as it is, rather than as they wish it were.   But it's not because any of us want to see Perry elected, or wish McCain had been -- that's entirely a straw man.  It's because we disagree with policies/actions of the man who was elected, and are compelled to speak out accordingly.  Besides, seriously -- if a couple of snarky cartoonists or internet commenters can damage the President to the extent that some seem to believe, then he's got more serious problems than we know.

        Tom Tomorrow's most recent book is TOO MUCH CRAZY from Soft Skull Press.

        by Tom Tomorrow on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:47:57 AM PDT

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