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View Diary: The 'Greenies' are back in full force (342 comments)

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  •  I didn't leave the Democratic Party (1+ / 0-)
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    Johnny Q

    the Democratic Party left me.

    •  then what are you doing here? (2+ / 0-)
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      beach babe in fl, edwardssl

      this site is about electing Dems.

      •  nope (1+ / 0-)
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        Johnny Q

        this site is about electing more and better dems.

        why do so many forget the "better" part?

        that's why I'm here.

        •  the Democratic party is a big tent party (0+ / 0-)

          from right of center to socialist.

          get over it.

          •  the democratic party (1+ / 0-)
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            Johnny Q

            has abandoned it's core principles.

            get over it.

            •  no it hasn't (2+ / 0-)
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              beach babe in fl, Whimsical

              there is a difference between principles and getting legislation passed.

              •  yes it has. (1+ / 0-)
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                Johnny Q

                getting republican legislation passed is not ok.

                and lets be clear on your position here - are you saying that somebody should leave this cite when they feel that the Democratic party has moved too far to the right after that person has spent their entire life support the Democrats?

                •  seriously? you are off base here (1+ / 0-)
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                  If America is to work effectively for such a peace, we must first restore our national strength-military, political, economic, and moral.


                  After nearly four years in office, we Democrats have not solved all of America's problems.

                  Most of these problems we inherited. Eight years of Republican politics left this nation weak, rudderless, unrespected and deeply divided.

                  As a result of this legacy, despite our progress, inflation still erodes the standard of living of every American.

                  As a result of this legacy, despite our progress, too many Americans are out of work.


                  The last 12 years have been a nightmare of Republican irresponsibility and neglect. America's leadership is indifferent at home and uncertain in the world. Republican mismanagement has disarmed government as an instrument to make our economy work and support the people's most basic values, needs and hopes. The Republicans brought America a false and fragile prosperity based on borrowing, not income, and so will leave behind a mountain of public debt and a backbreaking annual burden in interest. It is wrong to borrow to spend on ourselves, leaving our children to pay our debts.

                  Read all of them, all of the text.  It's the same thing they say everytime.  We end up getting shit sandwich legislation no matter what.  That's because politics is the art of the compromise and corporate america has successfully bought off both parties to a degree.  That's not going to change. And it doesn't mean both parties are the same.  They are not. To have some other view in your mind, is to have made up stuff out of whole cloth, for your own reasons.

                •  Clinton and Gore passed tons of legislation (0+ / 0-)

                  that was essentially free market republican bills.

                  What Democratic party are you referring to?  Seems to me a non-existent one.

                  •  yes (1+ / 0-)
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                    Johnny Q

                    I am referring to the pre-clinton party.

                    although it has accelerated in recent years. at least clinton raised taxes, for instance.

                    •  which one? where is the platform link? (0+ / 0-)

                      and where is the supposed legislation list.

                      bring it on.  fdr?  catered to racists and fought the uber lefties in his party. lbj?  

                      •  for example, from your first link: (0+ / 0-)
                        The national-origins quota system of limiting immigration contradicts the rounding principles of this nation. It is inconsistent with our belief in the rights of man. This system was instituted after World War I as a policy of deliberate discrimination by a Republican Administration and Congress

                        Read more at the American Presidency Project:

                        meanwhile this president has accelerated

                        we could get into his attempts at cutting the safety net. we could get at his support for torture. we could go on and on.

                        this stuff has been well-documented, and there's been a ton of diaries about it. if you still refuse to believe it at this point, you are going to change your mind just because of evidence, so I think we are done here.

                    •  The Dems are a big tent party. period (2+ / 0-)
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                      beach babe in fl, Sylv

                      it has been one of our strengths throughout the years.  green party candidates have been funded by republicans to help split our vote.  they have used all kinds of means to peel away support.  but overall the party platform is the same in general.  they are a proAmerica, proEmpire, proBusiness, proRights party. legislation passed has always been a compromise and the progressives have always been pissed at the general party.

                      •  yes (1+ / 0-)
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                        Johnny Q

                        but why does "big tent" justify enacting republican policies?

                        why does "big tent" meant that the left side of the big tent should shut up and let the right side of the big tend get everything?

                        •  because republicans refuse cloture (1+ / 0-)
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                          requiring 60 votes.  in unprecedented numbers.

                          •  bullshit (1+ / 0-)
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                            Rick Aucoin

                            the GOP just got "98%" of what they wanted, with 47 senators, not 60+.

                            that excuse doesn't work anymore. it has been proven that you don't need 60+ senators to get something done.

                          •  seriously? you don't know what it takes (1+ / 0-)
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                            to get a bill passed?

                            look up cloture

                          •  wow, (0+ / 0-)

                            went right over your head.

                            again, the republicans are getting what they want with only 47 votes.

                            do you understand what that means? that means that stuff can get passed without starting at an automatic 60+ votes if you play hardball and force people to vote on stuff they wouldn't otherwise want to vote.

                            these dems keep declaring that if something doesn't have 60 votes BEFORE fighting hard for it, then it can't pass. we now know that's not the case, because the republicans keep getting stuff passed without having 60+ solid republicans int eh senate.

                          •  did you look up cloture? (1+ / 0-)
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                            republicans are forcing us to have 60 to even bring a bill to a vote in the senate.

                            you have shown that you don't know much about this.

                            the history, the process...

                          •  i know what cloture is (0+ / 0-)

                            you fucking asshole. stop with the straw-man condescending bullshit. you are purposely ignoring my point and trying to attack me personally.

                            the point is that you can get cloture if you fucking fight hard. the republican have proved this. they did ti with far fewer members in the senate than we had.

                            I'm done discussing this with you. you are not arguing in good faith at this point.

                          •  so why aren't our bills getting voted up or down (0+ / 0-)


                          •  last comment then I'm done (0+ / 0-)

                            the answer is that it's because we are not forcing them to.

                            we are not holding what the republicans hold dear to them hostage to force them to do it. we are not getting on eh same page,s tarting with the president, hitting them hard for it every day, forcing them to do it.

                            the few times when we did, we got them to back down (see 5 straight time when the GOP had to back down on holding up UI extensions over the first 2 years of obama's term).

                            yell, we are not even forcing them to actually vote on cloture votes, to get them on record. reid would back down on the mere THREAT of not voting for cloture.

                            you may say it doesn't matter, that fighting hard wouldn't have mattered. you don't fucking know that because you can;t fucking know that. we need to fucking try, and try hard.

                            but fucking assholes like you will just continually make excusing wile millions freeze, because "our side" is more important to you. you are scum, you have shown that you are not interested in real discussion (saying that to fight hard mean to abuse the CIA, etc).

                            we are done here.

                          •  how do you force them? (0+ / 0-)

                            they aren't going to budge.  

                            what do you know that i don't?  

                          •  i gave an example (0+ / 0-)

                            the GOP had to back down 5 straight times on UI, for example. the idea that politicians don't move with the carrot and the stick is incorrect, and it's proven that they do.

                          •  that's compromise (0+ / 0-)

                            and it's gotten a lot of stuff passed.

                            albeit not perfect.

                          •  they have a pretty easy hand here (1+ / 0-)
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                            just sit on their hands, delay and prevent any good legislation from becoming law, unless it happens to enrich themselves, their district etc.  

                            they can "Carter" Obama fairly easily.  they don't have to budge.  their constituents actually want them to go farther right and the moderates are getting voted out.  you seriously cannot have some solution to this..  we would all have it.

                          •  by your comments upthread (1+ / 0-)
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                            you didn't have a clue was cloture was...

                            again, the republicans are getting what they want with only 47 votes.

                            which means you didn't understand cloture.

                          •  again (0+ / 0-)

                            you missed it. i never said closure didn't take 60 votes. i was saying that you don't need to start off with an automatic 60 votes to get cloture, and I used the republicans only have 47 members of the senate as proof of that.

                            you are intentionally missing my point to try to attack me personally.

                          •  um the republicans can do that (0+ / 0-)

                            we did it during the bush years.

                            we never had enough ppl to change the rules. so what else you got?  the rules the rules.

                          •  seems you still don't understand cloture (1+ / 0-)
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                            beach babe in fl
                            you don't need to start off with an automatic 60 votes to get cloture, and I used the republicans only have 47 members of the senate as proof of that.

                            if republicans force cloture, then 60 votes are required. now if the rules were changed regarding that, republicans would probably go back to filibustering. in the end, the strategy is the same, prevent us from passing legislation.  we must involve them to get anything passed. which means they have to be bought off...

                            this is how it works folks.  btw, we have that same power and we have used it.

                          •  the big difference here (2+ / 0-)
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                            beach babe in fl, Sylv

                            is Dems aren't forced to vote in lockstep with the party.

                            which is a good thing imo but it also means the republicans have an easier time getting their language added then we do.

        •  Because better is irrelevant (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          beach babe in fl, Sylv

          without more.

          "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

          by Whimsical on Thu Aug 18, 2011 at 10:45:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No. More is irrelevant... (0+ / 0-)

            ... without better.  

            Because electing a supermajority of Democrats where half of them are really Republican's obviously doesn't matter.  

            "The President and his administration have the job of, among other things, promoting the general welfare of the country, and that is simply not happening." - deweydog

            by Rick Aucoin on Thu Aug 18, 2011 at 10:12:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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