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View Diary: Feingold to support Obama for president in 2012 (368 comments)

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  •  thisnisn't about dfh's (6+ / 0-)

    it's about the simple fact that no credible candidate will primary obama. and the tip jar comment is about nader's complete lack of credibility.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Sat Aug 20, 2011 at 12:52:04 PM PDT

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    •  Who ever said that they had to be credible? (0+ / 0-)

      I agree that Nader is not a credible candidate, but he has not been wrong about what has been going on. He practically wrote the lexicon for corporatism in our system that the lefty blogosphere is now afire with; that the Democratic Party structure is so afraid of. That California took away the charter for its' largest caucus just because they dared to vote for wanting Primary for O should say much. Both about how the structure views populism and where the Democratic Party is going.

      Nader has had an effect upon voting habits. He has had an effect upon changing the reality that we are seeing here in this country.

      Why is political incrementalism absent associated incrementalist change in the way people view their government considered a viable political strategy? The fact that little has changed may have more to do wiwth attempts to shoot the message over time than that the message is flawed.

      •  Nader said Bush and Gore were the same thing. (0+ / 0-)

        It was a lie.  Nader also ran against Gore in the general election.  He did not primary Gore and then support him when he lost.  He deliberately set himself against Gore to take down the Democratic candidate.  Nader was right about many things but not how he handled his challenge.  He is also a narcissist--his motives are not pure.

        The Nader scenario (or the Edward Kennedy scenario for that matter) is not the only fucking possibility in 2012.  Progressive must challenge Obama in the primary.  We should challenge him on principles and not as an attack on the man himself.  We must not expect to win, but recognize that this is just one--very important--step toward building a Progressive movement.

        Otherwise let's just fold our tents an sneak out of American politics.

        In the GOP your status is inversely proportional to your integrity.

        by anothergreenbus on Sat Aug 20, 2011 at 02:00:55 PM PDT

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        •  Did you know that he tried to run as a Democrat (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cameoanne

          in the Primaries? Twice? That he only ran as a Green because the Democratic Party denied him a place in the Democratic Primary? Why shouldn't he run against Gore as a Green when the only reason he ran as one at all was because he was denied access to the D Primary?

          You need to read more about what Gore did whilst VP before you call Nader a liar. Lieberman was there to give the Democratic Party structure some comfort with his candidacy. Gore admitted it. What has distinguished Lieberman from, say, Bush the past ten years? That would be your better test, and may explain a lot of Nader's support in 2000 for you.

          Finally, name a pol that is not a narcissist. Please. Last I heard it was part of the psychological make-up of most of those who go into politics. Why the double standard?

          •  Gore and Bush were not equal. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Laurence Lewis, flhiii88

            In the GOP your status is inversely proportional to your integrity.

            by anothergreenbus on Sat Aug 20, 2011 at 03:27:47 PM PDT

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            •  Presumably just as Bush and Lieberman were (0+ / 0-)

              not equal, right? Proving a negative is going to be difficult work for you. I voted for the guy, but as with Obama I did so with my eyes open as to what we would probably see.

              •  I vote for Gore too. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                flhiii88, Alice Marshall

                I am a pragmatist.  Gore was obviously the lesser of two evils.  However, Nader was a spoiler and did almost nothing to build a serious counter movement to take on the GOP or, for that matter, the Democrats.  The Green Party is completely insignificant.  It's a vanity-party.  Nothing more.

                I'm asking Progressives to start to behave like an Opposition Party and seriously take on the corporate parties.  It has to be done or the gig called America, is over.

                In the GOP your status is inversely proportional to your integrity.

                by anothergreenbus on Sat Aug 20, 2011 at 04:01:53 PM PDT

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                •  Watch out! (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  cameoanne, Alice Marshall

                  You are in a diary warning those in a serious counter movement to Democratic orthodoxy of the consequences of voting their conscience.

                  How many more years do you think that is going to fly? Watch the Greens in California this next election. Those who are being told that they have nowhere else to go just may disagree, and as goes California.....

                  Laurence Lewis is smart enough to recognize this dynamic.

                  •  I have no idea what you are talking about. (0+ / 0-)

                    In the GOP your status is inversely proportional to your integrity.

                    by anothergreenbus on Sat Aug 20, 2011 at 04:38:32 PM PDT

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                    •  Parse it! (0+ / 0-)

                      People are looking for a Primary candidate. Laurence has told us here that it would be foolhardy for any known Democratic pols to do so.

                      Why is it so critical that the status quo be maintained? Why is this even an issue worthy of Laurence's time?

                      •  Who said maintain the status quo? Not me. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        cameoanne

                        "No Democrat who has any chance of ever becoming president will challenge President Obama in 2012"

                        There are other possibilities like using the forum of a primary run against Obama to apply pressure and to start to establish a Progressive Platform in the political discourse.

                        "It may not be the most savory option for those yearning for a more liberal, progressive, and yes—pragmatic— political agenda, but the only options for 2012 are President Obama and a batshit crazy Republican."

                        This is a false choice.  There are other things that could be done if Progressives were willing to plan ahead and take some risks.  Ruminating about why Obama continues to betray previously sacrosanct Democratic values is a waist of time.  Likewise, remaining mired in the "we have no choice" mentality is equally unproductive.  Running off to a minor opposition party is impotent.  

                        In fact, since the Democratic Party is evolving, unchecked, into a completely corporatist party, this is the only way out of this dilemma--the only way to take the Party back.

                        In the GOP your status is inversely proportional to your integrity.

                        by anothergreenbus on Sat Aug 20, 2011 at 06:34:45 PM PDT

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                        •  We are talking at crossed purposes. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          anothergreenbus

                          I said that the Party is suppressing dissent to keep the status quo. I hear you when you say that there are options, but this has been in the wind for over a decade; there ain't much time left. Even Glenn Beck has recognized that the left flank of the Party is starting to drop out, and that we are extremists comprises his entire schtick. When he is casting centrists as an extreme so that he does not get caught with his pants down after the elections results, surely there are analysts within the Democratic Party that see the same dynamic.

                          Bottom line, the challenger does not have to win to keep the left voting for the D's, he just has to give the impression that the tent is still big enough to hold it.

    •  Kennedy did it in 1980, (3+ / 0-)

      and Carter was leagues to the left of Obama.  And Carter will be the first one to tell you that Kennedy's primary challenge had nothing to do with his loss in the general to Reagan.

      Nor can you blame Nader for Gore's loss, since 9 times as many Florida Dems voted for Bush than voted for Nader.

      The only thing a primary challenger has to worry about is having enough funds to buy advertising and hire staffers.  Because Candidate Obama has already made the best ads to use against President Obama when he runs for re-election.  Might as well being a real Democrat using them to drive this neoliberal neocon out of office as opposed to a worse neoliberal neocon who happens to have an R on his lapel instead of a D.

      He's got a (D) next to his name. How many Ds and how many Rs next to his policies? - Jim P

      by Uberbah on Sat Aug 20, 2011 at 02:51:11 PM PDT

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      •  I agree but, (0+ / 0-)

        as I have already commented, winning the primary is not the only good outcome possible.  Even if our candidate runs and fails, she/he can lay the foundation for 2016.  And, they can help elect real Democrats in 2012.  

        I believe, if we take the long view, we can use a primary challenge to leverage our position in State and Congressional races and increase the chance that a true Progressive could win in 2016.  This is also about getting a countervailing message into the mainstream political discourse.  If we don't do that, we cannot expect to turn the tide in the future.

        I also believe that a challenge to Obama does not have to cripple him in the process.

        In the GOP your status is inversely proportional to your integrity.

        by anothergreenbus on Sat Aug 20, 2011 at 06:49:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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