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View Diary: Mr. Roosevelt's Social Insurance (197 comments)

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  •  Yes (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RFK Lives, happymisanthropy

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, can you imagine FDR convening a commission whose aim is to cut Social Security benefits to pay for Bush tax cuts?

    On any given day, you will see Obama supporters here disparaging FDR, some accusing him of racism.  Hardly a week goes by without someone making that claim, often using the internment of Japanese Americans as the reason for their GOP hatred.

    Perhaps these people are GOP disruptors, if not, they're as they claim, supporters of Obama.

    "My father always told me that all businessmen were sons of bitches, but I never believed it until now." - JFK during the 1962 Steel Crisis

    by Betty Pinson on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:27:13 AM PDT

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    •  Here's an example (0+ / 0-)

      Some pretty ugly stuff. Well, its offensive to me.

      Link

      "My father always told me that all businessmen were sons of bitches, but I never believed it until now." - JFK during the 1962 Steel Crisis

      by Betty Pinson on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:32:30 AM PDT

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      •  no doubt (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TFinSF

        how offensive that anyone might question the mythologized version of any past presidency

        'leave our kid's less than informative history books alone dammit!'

        "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

        by Sybil Liberty on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:43:50 AM PDT

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        •  As DeminCT pointed out (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          happymisanthropy, blueoasis

          These claims originate from  right wing radicals who opposed all of FDR's programs claiming they were socialism.  

          "My father always told me that all businessmen were sons of bitches, but I never believed it until now." - JFK during the 1962 Steel Crisis

          by Betty Pinson on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:51:38 AM PDT

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          •  bs betty (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JC from IA

            Any number of Dems objected to FDR's less than perfect SS program for the fact that it excluded roughly 1/3 of all Americans at the time.

            Needless to say that in order to pass it in any form, he had to compromise his own ideology in order to get the requisite votes from dixiecrat-dems.

            ...there's your "template".

            In 2011 rhetoric of course, FDR would be charged with "capitulation" & "lacking leadership" by those of you honest enough to admit it.

            "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

            by Sybil Liberty on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 11:54:21 AM PDT

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    •  so then let's get this straight... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TFinSF, JC from IA

      when anyone points out the flaws of a great, but imperfect dead president, it's proof of vitriolic hatred for FDR and everything he ever stood for

      but when you all point out the flaws of President Obama it's much-needed "constructive criticism"

      gotit

      "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

      by Sybil Liberty on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:35:35 AM PDT

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      •  False equivalence (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happymisanthropy, pot, LarryNM

        the coin of your realm.

        "My father always told me that all businessmen were sons of bitches, but I never believed it until now." - JFK during the 1962 Steel Crisis

        by Betty Pinson on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:37:31 AM PDT

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        •  Still waiting (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sybil Liberty
          Its not much of a secret that he and his supporters despise FDR and his policies.

          for evidence that Obama despises FDR....  And, for that matter, evidence that Obama supporters do, since your link above doesn't demonstrate your assertion either.

          ....no longer in SF.... -9.00, -7.38

          by TFinSF on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:41:36 AM PDT

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          •  she's got nothin' (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TFinSF, JC from IA

            as usual

            "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

            by Sybil Liberty on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:45:33 AM PDT

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          •  Proof is in his policies, plus Jared Bernstein (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RFK Lives

            quote.

            We've already discussed Obama's policies on jobs and support for the middle class.  Cuts to SS, trickle down economics, aversion to government funded jobs programs.

            He's entitled to his opinion about FDR, certainly.  But Democrats don't have to agree with it.

            Also, recall Jared Bernstein's commLink about the WH rejection of WPA-style jobs creation programs

            Link

            "My father always told me that all businessmen were sons of bitches, but I never believed it until now." - JFK during the 1962 Steel Crisis

            by Betty Pinson on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:45:59 AM PDT

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            •  Direct quote (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RFK Lives, aliasalias

              from link above

              But then there’s this: There will be no WPA-type programs in our near future.  There was no appetite for them in the Obama admin in the midst of the worst recession since the Great Depression and there’s a lot less now.  The reasons for that are interesting and I’ll speak to them another day.  But it ain’t happening.

              The people in Obama's WH view themselves as something they call "political realists".  They've always maintained FDR style jobs and stimulus are "politically unpopular", despite evidence to the contrary.

              "My father always told me that all businessmen were sons of bitches, but I never believed it until now." - JFK during the 1962 Steel Crisis

              by Betty Pinson on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:49:24 AM PDT

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              •  wrong again, sunshine (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TFinSF, JC from IA

                EPA Specifically Hiring Unemployed for Great Lakes Restoration

                at some point you're really going to have to give up this vendetta of yours

                "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

                by Sybil Liberty on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 10:02:11 AM PDT

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                •  Good for them! (0+ / 0-)

                  Saw that earlier.  But that's the EPA, not Obama.

                  If Obama supported that kind of job creation, we'd be seeing much, much more of it.  Sadly, we aren't.  

                  "My father always told me that all businessmen were sons of bitches, but I never believed it until now." - JFK during the 1962 Steel Crisis

                  by Betty Pinson on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 10:03:44 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  divorced from reality (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JC from IA
                    The Obama administration moved forward on the Great Lakes Restoration Initiative and passed over 475 million dollars in Great Lakes restoration funding for 2011 with a plan to spend at least that much every year for five years. That money has been reduced to 300 million for 2012, as one of the items on the budget cut chopping block. I'm not going to complain TOO much.

                    by your reasoning:

                    The WPA and the CCC had no place in FDR's New Deal    ✓

                    "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

                    by Sybil Liberty on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 10:10:06 AM PDT

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            •  Not even going to try? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sybil Liberty
              Its not much of a secret that he and his supporters despise FDR and his policies.

              Please provide evidence that Obama despises FDR, as you promised.  You haven't even cited evidence that Obama somewhat dislikes or is even mildly annoyed with FDR.

              ....no longer in SF.... -9.00, -7.38

              by TFinSF on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:50:32 AM PDT

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              •  Already have (0+ / 0-)

                Just because you disagree with the policy position, doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist.

                "My father always told me that all businessmen were sons of bitches, but I never believed it until now." - JFK during the 1962 Steel Crisis

                by Betty Pinson on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:53:24 AM PDT

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                •  There are none so blind (0+ / 0-)

                  as those who refuse to see.

                  Go bug someone else.  You folks are growing very boring and dreadfully predictable.  

                  "My father always told me that all businessmen were sons of bitches, but I never believed it until now." - JFK during the 1962 Steel Crisis

                  by Betty Pinson on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:56:39 AM PDT

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                •  I'll give you a hint, (0+ / 0-)

                  as I am in a charitable mood today.  "No appetite for new WPA-style program" doesn't mean "has contempt for the original WPA" much less "loathes the creator of the WPA".  So, again, please present evidence that PBO despises FDR.

                  ....no longer in SF.... -9.00, -7.38

                  by TFinSF on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:57:53 AM PDT

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          •  Obama's disdain for FDR's economic approach (6+ / 0-)

            has become increasingly apparent over the past 2 years.   I didn't fully buy the Harper's cover story "Barack Hoover Obama" then, but I've undergone a painful reassessment since that time.  Back when the Dems, flush w/ consecutive electoral trimuphs, dominated both houses, Baker wrote:

            Speeches almost as powerful have followed, always linking these ideas together. But, like Hoover, Obama has been unable to make his actions live up to his words. Health care is being gummed to death on Capitol Hill. Obama has done nothing to pass “card check” provisions that would facilitate union organization and quietly announced that he would not seek stronger labor and environmental protections in NAFTA. He has capitulated on cap-and-trade in the budget outline and never even bothered to push for an actual carbon tax. Only minuscule portions of the stimulus bill or his budget proposals were dedicated to mass transit, and his indifference to the issue—what must be a major component of any serious effort to go green—was reflected in his appointment of a mediocre Republican time-server, Ray LaHood, as his transportation secretary.

            Still worse is Obama’s decision to leave the reordering of the financial world solely to Larry Summers and Timothy Geithner, both of whom played such a major role in deregulating Wall Street and bringing on the disaster in the first place. It’s as if, after winning election in 1932, FDR had brought Andrew Mellon back to the Treasury. Just as Herbert Hoover could not, in the end, break away from the best economic advice of the 1920s, Barack Obama is sticking with the “key men” of the 1990s. The predictable result is that, even as he claims to recognize the interlocking nature of the problems facing us and vows to solve them as a whole, the president is in fact abandoning most of his program, at least for the time being.

            No doubt, President Obama and his chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, would claim that by practicing “the art of the possible,” they are ensuring that “the perfect does not become the enemy of the good.” But by not even proposing the relevant legislation, Obama has ceded a key part of the process—so much so that his retreat seems not so much tactical as a reversion to his core political beliefs.

            In terms of domestic economic policy in response to an historic systemic trauma, there is no comparison between FDR and Obama.  The former consciously chose Keynes, while the latter has visibly leaned towards Friedman.  I guess that you can take the POTUS out of U Chicago, but you can't take the U Chicago out of the POTUS.

            Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?

            by RFK Lives on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 09:55:18 AM PDT

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            •  Obama follows Reaganomics (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RFK Lives, Tyree, happymisanthropy

              he doesn't follow FDR's policies. In fact, one would be hard pressed to find any instance where he's promoted economic policy anywhere close to FDR's.

              Perhaps the defenders of Obama's alleged FDR-like policies can provide us with some examples.  I can't think of any to date.

              I still believe in redemption, though. Its still possible for Obama to learn some substantive lessons and change course to support more evidence based economic policy.  Let's hope he does.

              "My father always told me that all businessmen were sons of bitches, but I never believed it until now." - JFK during the 1962 Steel Crisis

              by Betty Pinson on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 10:00:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Roosevelt didn't "consciously" choose Keynes (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JC from IA, Sybil Liberty

              In fact, as historian William Leuchtenberg writes, even after the Roosevelt Recession:

              While Roosevelt had broken with the budget-balancers and resumed spending, he still had not embarked on the kind of massive spending which the Keynseians called for.  He seems to have been even less impressed with Keynes than the British economist was with the President’s grasp of economics, and at no point did he, in fact, embrace Keynesianism.  “It is not clear,” reflected Keynes’s official biographer, “that he acted on the principle that it was the deficit, rather than the public works themselves, that was the potent agency in reducing unemployment.”  Roosevelt trusted in common sense and in finding a middle way between extremes.  (Leuchtenberg, Roosevelt and the New Deal, 1932-1940, 264)

              Not only that, Paul Krugman concurs with this view:

              Now, you might say that the incomplete recovery shows that “pump-priming”, Keynesian fiscal policy doesn’t work. Except that the New Deal didn’t pursue Keynesian policies. Properly measured, that is, by using the cyclically adjusted deficit, fiscal policy was only modestly expansionary, at least compared with the depth of the slump.

              "In the long run, Americans will always do the right thing — after exploring all other alternatives." - Winston Churchill

              by puakev on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 11:40:33 AM PDT

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              •  FDR was making it up as he went along (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blueoasis

                Glass-Steagall, SS, Wagner Act, WPA, PWA, CCC, and TVA were all radical departures from anything that had ever been previously considered, much less tried.  Obama as I noted above, is more akin to Hoover, a point that I don't see anyone disputing here.  Over 2.5 years into the worst slump since the 1930's, this WH is just now just considering a paltry few hundred million in EPA funding fo direct job creation while spending $700bn on the Pentagon and after throwing >$1tn at Wall Street.

                Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?

                by RFK Lives on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 12:15:36 PM PDT

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                •  I don't dispute (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sybil Liberty

                  that what FDR did was much bigger than anything Obama has done or anything that came before him.  But your own words were that Roosevelt "consciously chose Keynes" when he did no such thing.

                  "In the long run, Americans will always do the right thing — after exploring all other alternatives." - Winston Churchill

                  by puakev on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 12:33:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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