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View Diary: What do we really know about Perry, Romney and Bachmann? (29 comments)

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  •  We did have them. (0+ / 0-)

    Yet somehow the Republicans managed to convince a healthy chunk of the voting populace that the US Navy was too stoopid to award their decorations appropriately.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

    by sidnora on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 01:07:55 PM PDT

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    •  If at first you don't succeed ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sidnora

      build a better mousetrap!

      In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

      by Seneca Doane on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 01:21:24 PM PDT

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      •  Sorry, but (0+ / 0-)

        if your point is that we didn't have good enough facts, I disagree. If your point is that we didn't disseminate our facts effectively, I disagree.

        My point is that most people don't respond to facts, they respond to stories that confirm their current emotional state. You have only to dip into any of the Obama meta diaries here to see this in action. Each side has plenty of facts about the president's accomplishments or failures, respectively, to marshal to their argument, and neither changes any minds. I doubt they even expect to any more. Both sides are too emotionally invested in their beliefs to allow any nuance to creep in. To their credit, at least both sides here fight their fights mostly with facts, rather than lies. The Republicans have no such scruples.

        Plenty of people decided that they liked the W story, as obvious as its complete falsity was to us. It had heroes and villains, a macho leader who also seemed down-to-earth and approachable, and events soon seemed to validate it. When things did start seeming a bit off, they were not about to decide that they'd been believing a fake for most of the previous four years; that's too emotionally painful. Better to believe a factless story about someone whom they viewed with suspicion from the start. It took a lot more facts, and a lot more pain, for a majority of people to stop believing that story.

        We're going to need a very good story next year, and I don't see us having one yet. The other side's story may seem absurd to us, but they are convincing more people with every passing day. And it's going to take both of "our" sides admitting some nuance into their views to construct a story good enough to beat theirs.

        The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

        by sidnora on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 02:20:21 PM PDT

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        •  I'm familiar with Drew Westen's work (0+ / 0-)

          on the topic.  How complete do you suppose the the disjunction between a story and its underlying facts to be?  It's certainly a good place to start; otherwise, I'm not sure whether you're simply offering a counsel of despair.

          The facts that are given here can be the basis for such stories.  Even the most damaging and unfair stories -- such as pinning the Willie Horton rape onto Michael Dukakis in 1988 -- began with a fact.  They twisted it out of recognition, but it still started with a fact.

          If you want to put stories, entirely separate from facts, into the Rick Perry DKosopedia page, that's up to you.

          In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

          by Seneca Doane on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 02:27:08 PM PDT

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          •  The "John Kerry lied to get his medals" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Seneca Doane

            story began without a scintilla of fact. So did the "Obama isn't a natural-born American" story. It didn't matter - those stories confirmed what their believers were disposed to believe. And it didn't hurt that some people were prepared to spend lots of money to spread them.

            But of I course I prefer stories that have facts as their basis; I'm a Democrat. And I think it's very possible to construct and use good stories that have facts.

            What I doubt is my fellow Democrats' ability or desire to do that. They get stuck on the facts and never get any further. Also, I think they're often off-base about which facts would make the kinds of stories we need to tell. And I think they still believe that stories, in general, are somehow beneath us.

            Good luck with the dKosapedia project, really. Given that it's been sort of a backwater on the site for a long time, I think you've got your work cut out for you, but it could be worth while. And I don't think it's the place to write stories.

            The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

            by sidnora on Sun Aug 28, 2011 at 02:57:58 PM PDT

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