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View Diary: What the polls say about free trade (219 comments)

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  •  My cynicism is showing (12+ / 0-)

    I'm astonished the typical voter (or a plurality of them, anyway) knows enough about free trade to know that it's a problem.

    Of course, that surprising level of awareness is all for nought because, as you mention, both parties are content to forge ahead with their thinly veiled race to the bottom. Thank you, "soft money" and corporate personhood!

    •  All for nothin'...the voters have no say (11+ / 0-)

      if it comes to corporate persons vs joe citizen we lose.

      Media wants to keep us separated cause if the right, left, and middle ever come together change might really happen...

      Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing.Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1841

      by SallyCat on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 06:57:18 PM PDT

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      •  the voters have no say, but not for the reason (5+ / 0-)

        most think . . .

        The WTO already exists, and it already has jurisdiction over nearly all world trade. The bilateral treaties no longer matter very much. WTO sets the real rules, and WTO doesn't have to care what any voters think because WTO is not elected--and has legal veto power over any act carried out by any elected government.

      •  The Center will always be corporate. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SallyCat, Mr Robert, joedemocrat, Aspe4

        The Right and the Left are fighting for the Center.

        That's the political lay of the land these days.

        The Center is decidedly corporate and it will remain so as long as we allow corporate to inform our population.

        Peace~

        Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

        by k9disc on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 07:35:23 PM PDT

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      •  It really is "divide and conquer" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SallyCat, Aspe4

        It's one reason everything is presented as polarized right from the get-go. And they hire experts at stirring emotions, and muddying the discussion, all in a polarized atmosphere.

        Came across a conservative/libertarian blogger. He said "Hey, you tell me global warming, I don't believe you. We're too tiny to have an effect, and the Sun is huge. You tell me soot, well, I see that, I can tell how that's bad, I don't want my town to have that."

        I think that's a bit of genius there. We're fed stock phrases, and then have debates about non-existent categories. We're reduced to a political "discourse" which amounts to, as old-timers used to say, "blah blah about tra tra."

        Breaking Media Central is really the very first task of a serious rebellion against the existing corrupt order.


        "Whatever you do, don't mention The War." Basil Fawlty, while mentally impaired.

        by Jim P on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 09:06:09 PM PDT

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        •  I do that with conservative friends... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jim P, Johnnythebandit, Aspe4, Eric Nelson

          Currently CA One Care...all I need to do is flip the topic to their health insurance premiums and co-pays. I can instantly convert them to the issue. Did the same with some folks on SSI / Medicaid...totally understood the need for single payer.

          We take the political parties out of it and get to 'kitchen table' issues we can win. Just need to do more one on one...

          Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing.Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1841

          by SallyCat on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 09:24:30 PM PDT

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      •  Free Trade Issue Doesn't Fit Neatly Into (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VigilantLiberal, SallyCat, j1j2j3j4

        the MSM's right v. left, Republican v. Democrat prism like culture war issues such as gay marriage or abortion do. Both parties largely support free trade so there's no conflict for the media to cover as if it were a baseball game.

        "The problem with posting quotes off the Internet is you never know if they're genuine."--Gen. George Washington at the Battle of Gettysburg, February 30, 1908

        by Aspe4 on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 04:23:45 AM PDT

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    •  people don't know jack. (11+ / 0-)

      for years i tried to get people to boycott the big box china stores along with me so mom/pops on our main street could survive.
      that went over great.
      my most liberal friends "the tv's are so cheap!" "i want my cheap (insert cheap thing here) and too bad...".
      most of america is like this. they demand cheap goods.
      and support the stores/companies that put our american companies out of business.
      then they cry when they get hurt but it's too late.

      just so frustrating.
      and if everything were made here we would have to pay decent living wages.
      which they claim they are for but they want cheap products.

      so their answers to the pollsters are like old pancakes.
      worthless.

      everything bad we have done, and supported, has come home to roost.
      period. in every sector.
      in every way.
      we're all paying the piper now.

      even companies who shipped all the jobs overseas are hurting now because people aren't buying.
      what a mess.

      i don't expect this to be fixed by either party in my lifetime.
      the damage that was done is humoungously huge.
      and will require a radical fix.

      but hell - it's all good.
      perry the raptured tongue speaking lunatic from H  is running even with BO.
      so whatever.

      You are not an Environmentalist if you support the brutal, cruel, inhuman life and slaughter of animals in Factory Farms which produce 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions worldwide.

      by Christin on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 07:12:08 PM PDT

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      •  You (6+ / 0-)

        nailed it on the head.  People don't understand much of anything about trade or how its massive imbalance directly affects them negatively.

        However, a switch back to a gold standard would end the globalization ponzi scheme very quickly because balance of trade payments would have to be made in gold ... unless, of course the politicians are so corrupt they are willing to bankrupt the only true national treasure we have, our gold reserves.  But as corrupt as they are, who knows, they may have already dug America's burial plot for a few dollars more (in their pockets after office).

        "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild, 1790

        by FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 07:36:22 PM PDT

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      •  Happy to rec your comment, Christin... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Christin, joedemocrat, Mr Robert

        We rarely see eye to eye.

        I have to say that this comment is hard for me to swallow from you given your kneejerk defense of the Administration...

        And please don't get pissed about that comment and tune me out!

        I see you as a straight up 'free trader', 'art of the possible' 'pragmatist' and it's hard to hear your talk about buying local in a serious way.

        Perhaps you are just more 'realpolitik' than I or you have not become jaded enough to advocate scrapping this corporate sponsored government we have... not sure...

        I really do appreciate the comment and it will color all of our correspondence in the future.

        PEace~

        Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

        by k9disc on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 07:39:04 PM PDT

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        •  I think a lot of us who support Obama (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Christin

          are for fair trade, not free trade.

          I've also been a supporter of President Obama on this site. And I'm somebody who feels NAFTA was one of the worst bills passed the last 30 years. That and welfare reform.

          I support him because free trade isn't the only issue and because Republicans are even worse on the issue.

          I don't view free trade as pragmatic. First, it doesn't work. Second, look at public opinion. Third, the jobs exodus has contributed to the deficit and our inability to fund needed programs.

          I can't prove this. But I believe the tide is slowly turning on this issue. I think its sunk so low there's no place to go but up. Think about it - it doesn't work, more economists, more politicians, even a few business leaders question it. And if you consider public opinion, political opportunity, and our unemployment crisis, well isn't it all a recipe for things to change?

          •  i ♥ you joe (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joedemocrat

            you are always the optimist.
             i think we're heading for a total meltdown.
            and no one will stop it.
            until we come crawling out of the wreckage.
             but that's jus me. :-)

            You are not an Environmentalist if you support the brutal, cruel, inhuman life and slaughter of animals in Factory Farms which produce 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions worldwide.

            by Christin on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 08:47:41 PM PDT

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            •  Well, I could be wrong... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Christin

              I don't think my batting average is any better than yours or anyone else around here...

              There are days I feel really gloomy too. The Republicans seem to get so much of what they want. The public just doesn't seem to wake up. The corporations seem to have so much power given to them the last 30 years.

              But there are other days I remember what this country has done. No political era lasts forever. Bad as it seems now and long as we've been in it, the conservative era that began with the 1980 election will end just like every other political era. And it will be replaced with something else -

              Think about it. Didn't the robber baron era of the late 1800s and early 1900s end with the Depression?  Didn't British economist John Maynard Keynes come along?  Didn't FDR? And the New Deal era came to an end and was replaced with the current one.

              Well, we got problems. And the one thing that assures us is that eventually somebody is going to come along with solutions. That has to happen.

              In regard to trade, I've just often felt we've gone so low we can't go any place but up.

              But maybe I've been reading too much on political cycles

              Sorry - it is late and I'm not writing very clearly. And I do appreciate you too. I consider you one of my friends on daily kos :)  Hugs!!

              •  sigh...well. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                joedemocrat

                you are right about the robber baron era. and the new deal.
                but what gives you hope?
                is what makes me feel not good.
                we're slipping backwards again.
                and the fact that we came out of those horrendous times, and are now backsliding?
                horrifies me to no end.
                and the people on top laugh.
                the people on the bottom are split into those who can't stop the slide even though they know it's happening.
                and those who chose to remain willfully ignorant and deny what's being done to them and hate the wrong party even more.

                i dunno.
                i was feeling ok about things up until this year.
                now i thinking what i first wrote.
                we're in a for a whole lotta hurt.

                 {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{joey!}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

                i'm a huge LOTR's fan.
                i thought the ring was lost in 2004.
                then i thought no! it was not. i.e. 2008.
                now i think it really was.

                holy crap. maybe i need to drink a glass of wine or something.

                You are not an Environmentalist if you support the brutal, cruel, inhuman life and slaughter of animals in Factory Farms which produce 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions worldwide.

                by Christin on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 09:15:29 PM PDT

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                •  Hey. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Christin

                  I get hopeful when I think about history and political eras- that's when I'm most positive. That's because history would teach political eras always end.

                  And look how fast things can change.

                  I thought/hoped the 2008 election was the start of a new era. But I'm not always sure anymore - it still may be.

                  One thing that's gotten me down is Obama's poll #'s. Also, how right wing populism is on the rise and we don't seem able to combat it. Hard times give rise to populism, and what if the right wing populism wins??

                  •  my brother went to a seminary (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    PhilJD, joedemocrat

                    years and years ago.
                    his friend told him that is was risky.
                    your faith comes out stronger.
                    or you come out an atheist. you learn some stuff.
                    that may be better off not being learned.

                    the fork in the road in 2008 was going in such opposite directions.
                    i was afraid of the darker side of the road.
                    and that's the one we took.
                    we were not ready to change.
                    it took europe a damn long time.
                    we're still in our dark ages.

                    but his poll numbers are what i'd expect them to be with this economy going where it is.
                    we'll see next year...when the true lunatic is on the podium next to him  debating...
                    oh god forget it. can't even go there.

                    You are not an Environmentalist if you support the brutal, cruel, inhuman life and slaughter of animals in Factory Farms which produce 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions worldwide.

                    by Christin on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 10:22:10 PM PDT

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        •  i know. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          joedemocrat

          i've said this before.
          the like of BO, and dislike of BO, have done strange things to people who see things the same way on other issues.
          i have my theories.
          i know why i hang onto him.
          you have to work with animal rights issues to undertand how you make do with scraps sometimes.
          that sounds strange but it truly colors my life in every way.
          but i know why others gave up on him.

          i'm a pragmatist only in certain areas.
          you would not dislike me if you knew how very very very very liberal i am as i live in the real world - outside of blog world.
          my SO can't take my world.
          my boycott list is 3984938 pages long.
          i have rules where we can buy food.
          gas. clothes. housing products.
          lawn products. it takes us hours to get things done and purchased with my "i accept buying from them " lists.  
          i pay more for fair trade products.
          i pay more for a lot of things - because in the end i can't take anything with me and the world is so freaking heartbreaking as it is,  i can't contribute to any more of the pain by how i live.

          you don't sound so shabby yourself. :-)
          at all.
          thank you for what you wrote.
          it was very kind.  

          you are like the sixth person who i disagree with on BO - but who i  just know i would like, respect and admire outside of that.

          You are not an Environmentalist if you support the brutal, cruel, inhuman life and slaughter of animals in Factory Farms which produce 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions worldwide.

          by Christin on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 08:40:13 PM PDT

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      •  that's an incredibly elitist view (0+ / 0-)

        and one that isn't backed up by the data BBB presents above.  The people are smart.  They know what's good for them.  Individually, though, we don't make the best decisions.

        I changed by not changing at all, small town predicts my fate, perhaps that's what no one wants to see. -6.38, -4.15

        by James Allen on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 01:50:24 AM PDT

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