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View Diary: Anti-Capitalist Meet-Up: Corporations Are Dictatorships (136 comments)

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  •  ultimately the problem is the paradigm. (0+ / 0-)

    Under the capitalist model, capital = ownership, and labor is a factor of production similar to machinery.

    Under the coop model, and presumably under various forms of socialism, labor = ownership, and capital is a factor of production similar to machinery.

    To get from one paradigm to the other requires that labor gain ownership of equity, and that new capital be procured as debt rather than capital equity.  

    "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

    by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 06:18:04 PM PDT

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    •  But why should capital = ownership (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NY brit expat

      After all, capital is created by labor. A factory or any other capital good must be built by workers. And financial capital is only valuable if it can be used to create physical capital. IMHO it makes a lot more sense for labor to mean ownership.

      "Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of overcoming it" Helen Keller

      by Johnnythebandit on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 07:53:27 PM PDT

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      •  "because they say so" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Johnnythebandit, TPau

        Yes, you & I agree that labor = ownership.

        And then there are natural resources used to build that factory, so arguably the Earth itself has an ownership stake.

        Realistically all of these formulations are arguable, and it just happened that capital won a couple of centuries ago and made their formulation into "the paradigm."

        It boils down to a fight for power: which faction, capital or labor, will have control.  

        Our version goes like this:  Labor borrows money to buy the "capital goods" (e.g. factory equipment) that enable labor to produce goods & services to sell to pay back the loans.

        But the owners of financial capital won't play (won't lend money to new business startups: try getting a loan to build a factory!), so that money has to come from somewhere else.

        Where it comes from would be a public-sector institution set up for the purpose.  And that's the key to moving toward socialism.  

        However that is also going to be the fight of a lifetime, because the existing holders of capital will not tolerate competition of that kind.

        And the place to start is by setting up a credit union whose purpose is to fund new small business startups.  I have a plan for exactly that purpose, that I've discussed in comments some time ago and should post as a diary.

        "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:31:16 PM PDT

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        •  You should that would be a great diary (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TPau

          I could definitely see that idea catching on as most people are tired of Wall Street banks and outsourcing.

          "Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of overcoming it" Helen Keller

          by Johnnythebandit on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:43:49 PM PDT

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          •  what do i need to do to be included in the.... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TPau, Johnnythebandit

            .... dKos "anti-capitalist" or socialist group?

            At that point I'd have an incentive to write that diary.  I've got plenty more where that comes from: a complete strategy for replicating the Mondragon model in the US.  

            However let's be careful about this: workplace democracy does not ensure an enlightened and progressive workforce any more than electoral democracy ensures an enlightened and progressive electorate.  Democratic control of anything is only as progressive as the majority of those who are in control.  Thus the need for ongoing political education.  

            Fortunately we can learn quite a bit from the success of capitalist advertising, and turn those techniques toward supporting socialism far more effectively than the quaint exercises in "political education" that occurred in the old socialist models.  

            "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:47:12 PM PDT

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            •  I think it's pretty easy to join (0+ / 0-)

              I think Justina will probably send you an invite message.

              While democracy doesn't automatically lead to progressive outcomes, ending corporate dictatorship will make activism a lot easier. Think about how much $ is spent by corporations on propaganda and lobbying and other things that corrupt our minds and government. And if people are directly engaged in the decision making process they will begin to learn better ways of relating to each other.

              I definitely agree with you on emulating capitalist advertising which has been very effective. The 30 second commercial can really draw people in if done right. That old spice guy commercial got 30 million people to watch for free on youtube.

              "Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of overcoming it" Helen Keller

              by Johnnythebandit on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 12:53:31 AM PDT

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              •  yes, goal one is to rescind corporate personhood. (0+ / 0-)

                Corporations should have the following rights and no more:

                a) the right to exist

                b) the right to buy, own, and sell property

                c) the right to sue and be sued in their own name.

                Officers' and directors' limited liability protection, and that of managers lower down in the org chart, should not extend to criminal violations of which they had any knowledge.

                And it should be possible to declare a corporate death penalty whereby the entity would be taken over by government and its management replaced, and optionally the whole thing scattered to the four winds.  

                Further, officers and directors should be liable for a penalty whereby they would be prohibited from serving as officers or directors of any publicly-traded corporation or any private corporation above a threshold size limit (such as a "small business" size limit of e.g. 50 employees).  

                So goal #1 should be to insert the word "natural" before "persons" in the 14th Amendment.  That is such a simple change, understandable on its face, that there should be no problem whatsoever in getting the public to support it.  Plus or minus the biggest corporate propaganda campaign in the history of the human race, opposing it.  

                BTW, I can tell you from experience, that workplace democracy can be thwarted entirely by office politics and by individuals who are motivated by "the will to power."   There is a definite need to educate workers to think like owners, and also to not engage in office politics or power struggles.  In the end any kind of job is about this: earning one's living by producing goods and services for others.  The purpose of management, no matter who is in that role, is to facilitate the work and keep things moving smoothly and productively.

                So as well as training for worker-owners, there is also a serious need for training managers in the worker-ownership model.  

                Yes we'all here could write a few dozen books about these things.  

                Meanwhile I'll look forward to hearing from Justina.  

                "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 03:39:11 AM PDT

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