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View Diary: Israel/Palestine: The Question That Stops The Discussion (68 comments)

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  •  The UN statehood bid is the last gasp for 2 States (8+ / 0-)

    IMHO. If this statehood bid doesn't move things forward I doubt there will even be a Palestinian Authority 2 years from now, and things will have shifted to a drive for Palestinian citizenship rights within Israel IMHO.  

    Gasoline made from the tar sands gives a Toyota Prius the same impact on climate as a Hummer using gasoline made from oil. ~ Al Gore

    by Lefty Coaster on Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 08:32:51 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I can't see that happening... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      If the Israelis gave Palestinians citizenship rights, Jews would become a minority in a greater Israel. Keeping them in serf-like conditions as they are now, with no political rights or chance of economic advancement, would suit the hard-liners.

    •  I've always thought both Israel and Palestine are (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Foreign Devil

      doomed to failure, and both for the same reason----there is simply no way for a democratic state to exist when it's basis is one ethnic or religious group out of several.

      Inevitably, it must act undemocratically to avoid losing power to the other groups, by either removing them or by disenfranchising them.

      That is why "the Jewish state" of Israel will fail, and so will "the Islamic state" of Palestine.

      Democratic theocracies are simply an impossibility--and so is a democratic ethnic state in a multi-ethnic region. It can't be done.

      •  Why do you assume Palestine (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dont Call It, Anorish

        would be an Islamic state?

        First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

        by Ptah the Great on Sat Sep 17, 2011 at 02:10:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't (0+ / 0-)

          Although that is of course the goal of Hamas, and Hamas will be the dominant political power in any Palestinian state.

          But even if Palestine is a secular state (like, uh, Israel), the argument still applies. There's no way to have a democratic ethnically-based state in a population that also contains other ethnic groups. The dominant group (whether it's Jews or Palestinians) will inevitably be able to maintain power over the subject group (whether it's Palestinians or Jews) only through nondemocratic methods (whether it's removal or disenfranchisement).

          •  Why do you assume (0+ / 0-)

            Hamas will be the dominant political power?

            And many countries are based on ethnic groups (e.g. most European countries) but are able to accommodate other ethnic groups.  

            Not saying Palestine will succeed, but I'm not convinced it will fail either.

            First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

            by Ptah the Great on Sat Sep 17, 2011 at 09:27:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  because Hamas is the best organized and (0+ / 0-)

              best financed.  

              Other countries are able to exist as multi-ethnic democracies only if the ethnicities don't matter.

              In places where they DO matter, they fail utterly as democracies (reference: Yugoslavia).

              In both Israel and Palestine, of course, ethnicities matter.

              •  as an aside, I think Palestine has a better chance (0+ / 0-)

                than Israel.  Israel is by definition a "Jewish state"---it inevitably must use non-democratic methods to prevent non-Jews from gaining any power, either by removing them or by disenfranchising them.

                Palestine COULD potentially exist as a secular non-ethnic non-religious state where citizens of all religions and ethnicities are welcome as equal citizens (something Israel simply cannot do). But alas I think that will be very difficult, and deep down inside I don't think that's what they really want.

                So I see both states inevitably failing as democracies, and descending into either apartheid or ethnic cleansing.

              •  Hamas is not the best financed (0+ / 0-)

                Hamas funding is in the tens of millions whereas the PA funding in the billions both from domestic and international aid sources.

                •  and yet Hamas wins elections anyway (shrug) /nt (0+ / 0-)
                  •  Hamas won only one election (0+ / 0-)

                    and that was mainly due to dissatisfaction with the corruption with Fatah. They were not even allowed to rule since a coup by Fatah, supported by Israel and the US, successfully ousted them in the West Bank, leaving Hamas to govern Gaza. No elections have been allowed since (most likely because the US didn't like the outcome of the first election) but noone ruling the OPT now can be said to have any electoral legitimacy.

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