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View Diary: Why is Chris Hedges calling for "boots on the ground" in Libya? (72 comments)

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  •  The neocons are happy, they got rid of Gaddafi. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    John Kelly, Claudius Bombarnac

    These are the same ones who got us into Iraq and Afghanistan and want hegemonic control of Iran, Somalia, Sudan, Algeria, and Syria, and the entire Middle East and Africa for that matter. That should tell anyone about the goals of many of those who impact foreign policy decisions in this country.  Their goals are certainly not altruistic or humanitarian.  There are indeed many danger signs with the situation in Libya and six months in, there are no clear signs how it will work out for the Libyan people as a whole.  Hedges opinions are harsh, but for those that think Libya is "different", we'll just have to wait and see.  

    S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 08:36:45 AM PDT

    •  The title of your diary is completely false and (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      John Kelly, BigAlinWashSt

      misleading. I suggest that people read Hedges' report in full.

      http://www.truthdig.com/...

      Libya: Here We Go Again
      ...
      The NATO airstrikes on the city of Sirte expose the hypocrisy of our “humanitarian” intervention in Libya. Sirte is the last Gadhafi stronghold and the home to Gadhafi’s tribe. The armed Libyan factions within the rebel alliance are waiting like panting hound dogs outside the city limits. They are determined, once the airstrikes are over, not only to rid the world of Gadhafi but all those within his tribe who benefited from his 42-year rule. The besieging of Sirte by NATO warplanes, which are dropping huge iron fragmentation bombs that will kill scores if not hundreds of innocents, mocks the justification for intervention laid out in a United Nations Security Council resolution. The U.N., when this began six months ago, authorized “all necessary measures … to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack.” We have, as always happens in war, become the monster we sought to defeat. We destroy in order to save.
      ...
      Once the Libyans realize what the Iraqis and Afghans have bitterly discovered—that we have no interest in democracy, that our primary goal is appropriating their natural resources as cheaply as possible and that we will sacrifice large numbers of people to maintain our divine right to the world’s diminishing supply of fossil fuel—they will hate us the way we deserve to be hated.

      •  This post was not meant as a response to your (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BigAlinWashSt

        post. Sorry for error.

        I agree with you that the removal of Gaddafi has long been part of the neocon's agenda for the ME.

      •  What exact is false about my title? (0+ / 0-)

        Please be specific.

        Is he or is he not calling for "U.N. military observers and police" in Libya, which means an armed presence, that will be given the job of  "train[ing] new security forces" and "provide independent verification" which implies the right to go anywhere and lord over the Libyan government.

        If you don't think it reasonable to call that "boots on the ground" would you please explain why not?

        Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

        by Clay Claiborne on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 11:30:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm confused. I've had a couple beers, so maybe... (2+ / 0-)

          ...I missed it, but as near as I could tell, you failed to quote the sentence where he actually calls for "boots on the ground" in Libya.

          Again, if I just missed it, I apologize, but I honestly couldn't find the quote in your diary, and given your title, I would have expected the quote to have been included right at the top, without having to pursue links to other websites.

          "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

          by ehrenfeucht games on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 12:11:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  He did not 'call' for UN military observers (0+ / 0-)

          He merely stated that the call was rejected even in the face of  

          "vendettas in Libya have already begun. Government buildings in Tripoli have been looted, although not on the scale seen in Baghdad. Poor black sub-Saharan African immigrant workers have been beaten and killed. Suspected Gadhafi loyalists or spies have been tortured and assassinated. These eye-for-an-eye killings will, I fear, get worse. A plan to deploy United Nations military personnel to help stabilize Libya has been abandoned."

          BTW, the TNC is still open to UN policing as long as they are not 'military' in nature. These would have very little power.

          http://www.un.org/...
          United Nations Policing

          The United Nations has been deploying police officers for service in peace operations since the 1960s. Traditionally, the mandate of police components in peace operations was limited to monitoring, observing and reporting. Beginning in the early 1990s, advisory, mentoring and training functions were integrated into the monitoring activities in order to offer peace operations the opportunity to act as a corrective mechanism with domestic police and other law enforcement agencies.

          •  of course it's not supprising that libya (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Clay Claiborne

            wouldn't want foreign boots on the ground what with their history of european colonization. the tnc however said they would consider arab troops (such as from qatar) if it was needed to help maintain security.

            Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation…want rain without thunder and lightening...Power [including obama] concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. ~ Frederick Douglass

            by stolen water on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 07:28:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  "wait and see" is another corrupt "left" line. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      stolen water

      From day one the Thuwwars have put a ton of material on the Internet. Videos, audio recordings, websites [feb17.info and many others], facebook pages, photos, blog posts, tweets. Much of it in English and Google has probably spent millions in the last year giving us via Google translates, reasonable  access to the stuff that isn't in English.

      Never before has a revolutionary movement been so open and accessible to the world, and yet we keep hearing the lazy people in the US left saying "we don't even know who these people are."

      "These people" are engaged in a desperate struggle for their liberation and that struggle is intimately connected to the forward progress of all humanity. The matter is by no means decided and every hand is required on deck if we are to weather the storm and "activists" like you council "wait and see."

      The "wait and seers" will kill you every time
                            - Cliff Robertson in Midway

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 11:19:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  One way to look at it. Another way is this effort (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Claudius Bombarnac

        has seen the largest, most integrated and despicable propaganda effort by the western governments and their media ever seen.  Alot of the negative information about NATO and Rebel actions coming out is simply ignored or categorized as Gaddafi propaganda.  20,000 sorties and nearly 9K bombing missions and we hear virtually nothing of the damage or casualties.  
        Wait and see, what the hell else are we supposed to do, all become NATO cheerleaders?
        Just once I'd like to hear the views of supporters relative to why the Neocons are so much in favor.  

        S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

        by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 11:57:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  what about the 70 days or more where (0+ / 0-)

          gaddafi loyalists held misrata under seige, constantly pummeling it with katyusha rockets, mortar shells, tank fire and snipers.

          Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation…want rain without thunder and lightening...Power [including obama] concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. ~ Frederick Douglass

          by stolen water on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 07:09:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  proof is in the pudding. (0+ / 0-)

          if libyans were so incensed about nato bombings, (and if there had been more support for gaddafi,) the rebels wouldn't have been able to roll into tripoli as easily as they did.

          Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation…want rain without thunder and lightening...Power [including obama] concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. ~ Frederick Douglass

          by stolen water on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 07:13:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You guys really like to play up NATO bombing (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          stolen water

          don't you? You do know that they have only dropped bombs in about 20% of their strike, what you call bombing, missions don't you? A strike mission means they go out armed but 4 out of 5 times they come back without attacking anything, at least that was the ratio last time I checked  which was in July.  See How Many Libyans has NATO Killed? That means they "dropped bombs" about 1800 times. As of June 29, when I was preparing that diary, US planes had dropped a grant total of 132 "bombs." Not exactly Rolling Thunder.

          Now let's look at recent air activity.

          Strike sorties conducted 15 SEPTEMBER: 40
          Key Hits 15 SEPTEMBER:
          In the vicinity of Sirte: 1 Military Storage Facility, 2 Armed Vehicles, 1 Tank, 4 Multiple Rocket Launchers, 8 Air
          Missile Systems.
          In the vicinity of Waddan: 1 Multiple Rocket Launcher.
          In the vicinity of Sebha: Several Armoured Vehicles, 1 Multiple Rocket Launcher, 1 Tank, 5 Armed Vehicles.
          Strike sorties conducted 16 SEPTEMBER: 43
          Key Hits 16 SEPTEMBER:
          In the vicinity of Sirte: 5 Command and Controle Nodes, 3 Radar Systems, 4 Armed Vehicles, 8 Air Missile
          Systems.
          In the vicinity of Hun: 4 Anti Aircraft Guns.
          Strike sorties conducted 17 SEPTEMBER: 42
          Key Hits 17 SEPTEMBER:
          In the vicinity of Sirte: 2 Command and Control Nodes, 4 Multiple Rocket Launchers, 1 Armed Vehicle, 4
          Surface to Air Missile Systems.
          In the vicinity of Hun: 9 Anti Aircraft Guns.
          In the vicinity of Al Jufra: 1 Command and Control Node, 1 Vehicle Storage Facility.
          In the vicinity of Sheba: 1 Armed Vehicle, 1 Armoured Vehicle, 1 Multiple Rocket Launcher

          This is the data from NATO and as far as I know no one as even accused them of falsifying data let alone proving it. So rather than throw around terms such as "massive bombing" and "carpet bombing" try to have a sense of prospective. The truth is the number of civilians killed by NATO operations over Libya probably numbers less than a few hundred.

          For me, its not about neo cons or any Americans, it's about the Libyans. I guess you could say I became a "cheerleader" for the Libyan uprising before I published my first diary about on Jan 18, 2 months before NATO involvement.

          And I didn't drop my support for their struggle when they made a "deal with the devil" that got them NATO air support without NATO ground troops, and almost certainly saved the lives of tens of thousands of Libyans, maybe hundreds of thousands. I don't know.

          We know what Qaddafi has done other places and they are still finding mass graves in the dessert and I fear will for some time. So how many Libyans do you think Qaddafi would have murdered by now it you and the other "anti-interventionists" had been successful in allowing him to use his air force, navy and heavy weapons without serious opposition?

          How about Syria? Aren't you happy that no one is even trying to protect the Syrian people from Assad's murderous assault? Can't you be satisfied with that bloodletting and let the Libyan people have their freedom.

          And the freedom is real to them. Have you noticed how Libyan tweets are starting to use their real names? I've so far not had to hesitate putting my name on everything I do, probably neither have you, so don't make light of what they have accomplished.

          Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

          by Clay Claiborne on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 11:20:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  NATO ran out of bombs... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BigAlinWashSt
            As of June 29, when I was preparing that diary, US planes had dropped a grant total of 132 "bombs."

            That is complete bullshit. If you have read the reports, some targets received 10 or more individual hits during an attack.

            NATO running out of bombs in Libya
            Published April 16, 2011

                Less than a month into the Libyan conflict, NATO is running short of precision bombs, highlighting the limitations of Britain, France and other European countries in sustaining even a relatively small military action over an extended period of time, according to senior NATO and U.S. officials.

                The shortage of European munitions, along with the limited number of aircraft available, has raised doubts among some officials about whether the United States can continue to avoid returning to the air campaign if Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi hangs on to power for several more months.

            Libya Mission Cost at $550 Million for U.S. Forces So Far

            Mar 29, 2011
            The U.S. launched 192 Tomahawks in the first 10 days,

            Here's a link
            Action by international forces
            for a better perspective on the amount of bombs/missiles NATO has dropped in Libya. I leave it to you to estimate the tonnage. Keep in mind that one plane can carry multiple bombs and rockets as well as cannon. There have been over 300 cruise missiles launched from ships/submarines in the Mediterranean from all NATO forces..

            •  132 targets were hit, not count cruise missiles (0+ / 0-)

              AFRICOM spokeswoman Nicole Dalrymple said in a statement on June 29th. “As of today, and since 31 March, the U.S. has flown a total of 3,475 sorties in support of OUP. Of those, 801 were strike sorties, 132 of which actually dropped ordnance.”  That was only 16.1% of the 4,963 strike sorties conducted by NATO as of June 29th with a total of 132 targets being hit.

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 12:10:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You are attempting to rationalize and minimize (0+ / 0-)

                the impact of NATO's devastation on the country. Your post only reflects on how many strike sorties were made by US forces - forces who were not supposed to be dropping bombs according to Obama's statements.

                The US used their B2 stealth bomber for several sorties. Here's their payloads (note the quantities of bombs these massive aircraft can carry):

                Armament:

                    2 internal bays for 50,000 lb (23,000 kg) of ordnance.[55]

                    80 × 500 lb class bombs (Mk-82) mounted on Bomb Rack Assembly (BRA)
                    36 × 750 lb CBU class bombs on BRA
                    16 × 2000 lb class weapons (Mk-84, JDAM-84, JDAM-102) mounted on Rotary Launcher Assembly (RLA)

                Here's a typical "strike sortie" by 3 B2 bombers:

                B-2 stealth jets return after epic 11,500 mile journey to bomb Libyan aircraft shelters
                March 21, 2011
                They dropped 45 satellite-guided bombs weighing 2,000lbs each

                Canada alone dropped hundreds of bombs before they ran out in late April and they only had 6 planes (each could carry up to 9 weapons depending on type).

                You are attempting to have us believe that all of NATO had less than a few hundred bombs and rockets.

                Denying truth with misleading information does not help your cause in the long run.

        •  former military intel officer pat lang (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clay Claiborne

          has a blog where veterans discuss their experiences. here one explains that x number of sorties doesn't always mean a target was engaged.

          http://turcopolier.typepad.com/...

          Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation…want rain without thunder and lightening...Power [including obama] concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. ~ Frederick Douglass

          by stolen water on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 11:52:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  A very informative piece, thanks (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            stolen water

            I would just like to point out his conclusion:

            If anyone still harbors thought of the victorious rebels marching into Tripoli behind a steamroller of airpower, the numbers game should disabuse them of this vision.

             Modern tactical airpower is precise, surgical, and deadly, but the support of the type being provided—numerically small and tailored to limit collateral damage—is not going to provide an offensive advantage for the under-trained and under armed Libyan rebels. They may still win, because if the support missions continue, they are a kind of safety net, but it may take a very long time. The alternative is that an attack against a legitimate command and control target may provide a de facto decapitation, and a swift end.

             That would be luck. Otherwise we surely must be thinking about someone’s boots on the ground if we continue to expect a military solution to the situation.


            Guess he was wrong about "boots on the ground" This was a Libyan victory.

            Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

            by Clay Claiborne on Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 12:21:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Very good piece - it speaks the truth (0+ / 0-)
              They may still win, because if the support missions continue, they are a kind of safety net, but it may take a very long time. The alternative is that an attack against a legitimate command and control target may provide a de facto decapitation, and a swift end.

              Note that this was posted May 2, 2011. NATO started using Apache strike helicopters for close air support on May 4.

              It still took 6 months of NATO attacks to gain Tripoli and the fighting is still not over. This is a long time. Obama said Libya action would last 'days, not weeks'.

      •  Here's the link to the Neocons call for action (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Claudius Bombarnac

        in Libya, which is exactly what they got.  

        http://www.foreignpolicyi.org/...

        S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

        by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 12:01:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, according to that they didn't want much (0+ / 0-)

          1) no fly zone
          2) freezing assets
          3) "Consider" not buying Qaddafi oil
          4) tell Qaddafi to stop being bad
          5) provide humanitarian aid.

          Not exactly a declaration of war. Pretty mild for neocons. Dated 2/25 after he had already massacred 2,000 in Benghazi and 800 in Tripoli. I think it supports my thesis that they secretly wanted to see Qaddafi's violence succeed.

          Thanks for the link.

          Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

          by Clay Claiborne on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 01:48:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Please back up your "massacred" figures. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BigAlinWashSt

            It appears to be more media spin.

            I think it supports my thesis that they secretly wanted to see Qaddafi's violence succeed.

            Here's Kristol on Mar 13, 2011. Obama and NATO did exactly like he wanted.

            Here's Wolfowitz

            http://www.youtube.com/...

            Here's Max Boot:

            http://www.nytimes.com/...

            I could give you dozens more to refute your statement that the neocons wanted to "see Qaddafi's violence succeed".

            •  the neocons were split on libya. (0+ / 0-)

              some were dismissive of the arab spring entirely. leslie gelb (cfr) characterized protesters as being nothing but a bunch of losers. other neocons like richard haas and even rumsfeld dismissed libya as being "a sideshow" either pointing to syria or iran as being more consequential. haas said the US intervention into libya was an "ill advised war of choice."

              Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation…want rain without thunder and lightening...Power [including obama] concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. ~ Frederick Douglass

              by stolen water on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 11:22:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Kristol says Qaddafi mustn't be allowed to (0+ / 0-)

              slaughter Libyans in the east. He said it twice in this video. And on that point I am in agreement with him. [Oh the horror! How can you declared your agreement with the neo con Kristol?] He didn't say anything about re-colonizing them and stealing their oil [ of course we know that's what he really wants]

              You're he ahole because all the neocons have to do to get you to support Qaddafi's slaughter of Libyans is to declare themselves against it.

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 11:32:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  neocons weren't united about libya. (0+ / 0-)

          leslie gelb pooh-poohed it. richard haas said US intervention into libya was an "ill-advised war of choice." rumsfeld didn't support it either.

          Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation…want rain without thunder and lightening...Power [including obama] concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. ~ Frederick Douglass

          by stolen water on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 11:27:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Most of the hard core PNAC members were (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            stolen water

            hot to trot against Gaddafi.

            Obama's Pathetic Response to Libya
            Feb 23, 2011 • By ELLIOTT ABRAMS
            ...
            call Musa Kusa, Qaddafi's long-time intelligence chief, and tell him that if the regime attacks any American we will find him wherever he is, however long it takes, and he will meet the same fate as Saddam Hussein. And tell him to pass that on to Qaddafi.

            I can find similar reports from 90% of the PNAC signatories to that famous "catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor" paper. Neocons will never let an opportunity to further their aims go unused.

            •  Qaddafi had killed at least 3000 Libyans (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              stolen water

              by that point and Abrams threatens to get even if he attacks Americans? Now really, what kind of threat is that? Slaughtering Americans was not his mission. Another way to look at that is that Abrams is not objecting to his killing Libyans.

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 12:26:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The neocons could care less about the deaths (0+ / 0-)

                of foreigners - civilian or otherwise. They also consider American soldiers to be cannon fodder and expendable.

                It's all about regime change in those countries that are not wholly subservient to US interests. You will notice that these 'principles' are almost identical to the substance of Obama's foreign policy speeches.

                PNAC - Statement of Principles

                Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

                    • we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

                    • we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

                    • we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

                    • we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

            •  how many of these neocons (0+ / 0-)

              before turning on him, helped to bring gaddafi "out from the cold?"

              how many got paid to help rehab his image?

              Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation…want rain without thunder and lightening...Power [including obama] concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. ~ Frederick Douglass

              by stolen water on Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 12:41:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The only ones I know of were Richard Perle and (0+ / 0-)

                Francis Fukuyama.

                The "Prince of Darkness" (Perle) may have only been sizing up the situation in Libya and making contact with Gaddafi's enemies within the government. We now see some of these enemies in the TNC. This would not be the first time Perle has been involved in these sort of deals.

                In the late 70's, Perle began promoting Turkey as a key US and Israeli strategic ally.  When Islamic terrorists destabilized that nation, a military coup established a pro-US regime.  It was later found that the terrorism that had destabilized Turkey was carried out by the Turkish military in conjunction with the CIA and NATO.  This is but one instance in which Perle was involved in western support for islamic militancy.

                There are some wikileaks cables from this period showing dissatisfaction within the Libyan government with the slow speed at which Gaddafi was moving towards privatization. Some had said that the changes would take decades unless Gaddafi was removed. The cables show that the CIA was knowledgeable of these facts at the time.

    •  neocons flipped the script. (2+ / 0-)

      they bemoaned the fact that mubarak is now gone.

      the fact is israel defenders support arabic dictators who oppress their own people. the last thing israel needs is free arab countries where the populace is now able to express anti israel sentiment via policy.

      this former cia chief even cops to that fact. neocons and pro israel defenders never really supported democracy.

      http://english.aljazeera.net/...

       

      Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation…want rain without thunder and lightening...Power [including obama] concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. ~ Frederick Douglass

      by stolen water on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 06:29:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  one exception i'd concede to neocons (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BigAlinWashSt

      drooling to overthrow iran.

      another blogger here points to the curiosity where the neocon agenda and western oil interests coincidentally(?) merge when it comes to iran.

      who is the most oppressed in the arab world in being most denied democracy? saudi arabia. and yet you don't hear neocons urging that regime to be overthrown.

      Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation…want rain without thunder and lightening...Power [including obama] concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. ~ Frederick Douglass

      by stolen water on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 06:34:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  noam chomsky had an article (0+ / 0-)

      where he pointed out the obama administration, weeks before the libya uprising heated up,  urged the international criminal court not to indict gaddafi ( who had allied with charles taylor) on crimes against humanity charges.

      http://kavkazcenter.com/...

      hard to argue the US secretly plotted the overthrow of gaddafi when weeks earlier, they had acted to protect him from being charged by the hague.

      Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation…want rain without thunder and lightening...Power [including obama] concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. ~ Frederick Douglass

      by stolen water on Sun Sep 18, 2011 at 06:41:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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