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View Diary: Anti-Capitalist Meet-up: Mondragon Miracle Part 3 of 3: Lessons Learned (87 comments)

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  •  Stalin's U.S.S.R. & Mao's China = State-Capitalism (3+ / 0-)
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    NY brit expat, TPau, Johnnythebandit

    GiveNoQuarter writes:

    It should be noted though, both the Soviet Union and Revolutionary China (i.e. China under Mao) experimented with small-scale market-based cooperatives and some of these were quite successful.
    .

    Neither country allowed worker-controlled production or decision-making.  Both substituted the party elite for the private capitalists, doing all the thinking and planning while the majority of workers, as is usual in capitalism, did all the physical work.  

    Thus it is no surprise that Stalin undertook to "revise" the teaching of Marx's "Capital" to omit any reference to Marx's analysis of the "Law of Value" as undergirdiing capitalism, because the theft of surplus labor from the workers was equally operative under Stalin's state-capitalism.

    It is only when the workers who are doing the work also decide what is produced, how it is produced and how it shall be distributed that socialism begins to have real meaning.

    In this respect, worker cooperatives, in which the workers do the thinking and administrating as well as the underlying labor, can operate as a model for how a society can organize itself to meet its needs and the true development of its human members.

    Convict Bush, Cheney and their torture cabal. Support single-payer health care,unions, and WikiLeaks.

    by Justina on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 05:01:35 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  exactly ... Justina, maybe I should write (2+ / 0-)
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      Justina, TPau

      a piece on the Law of Value (chapter 1 of volume I) so that people understand what Marx wrote and about the social nature of production and the role of social labour?

      "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

      by NY brit expat on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 05:10:41 PM PDT

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      •  I often think that people who pop into... (3+ / 0-)
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        Justina, NY brit expat, DawnN

        this site and make a few comment here and there, have little or no understanding of basic definitions, like capitalism, or anything about what Marx wrote. There is little understanding in the US about the relationship between Stalin and Marx. Some basic diaries might be nice. We could refer people to them later if they seemed confused about basic principles. Or perhaps we could do a basic ed series elsewhere and refer people to it. Sometimes I think this is people's first positive intro to these topics.

        De air is de air. What can be done?

        by TPau on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 05:19:59 PM PDT

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        •  I can write a diary on the law of value (1+ / 0-)
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          TPau

          perhaps givenoquarter or Justina could write about the purging of it from Marx's teachings by Stalin.

          "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

          by NY brit expat on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 05:38:38 PM PDT

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      •  Great Idea, NY brit expat, do it! (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TPau, NY brit expat, Johnnythebandit

        Raya Dunaveskaya, a Marxist-Humanist who was Trotsky's Russian-language secretary in Mexico in 1937, broke with the Trotskyists thereafter based on her economic analysis of the U.S.S.R. in 1940-43 as being a state-capitalist economy.

        Dunaveskaya's archives contain an interesting series of articles from 1948 on Stalin's move to re-vise the teaching of Marx's "Capital".  You can read them here.

        Convict Bush, Cheney and their torture cabal. Support single-payer health care,unions, and WikiLeaks.

        by Justina on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 05:25:12 PM PDT

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        •  I know of Dunyevskaya ... the Trotskyists (0+ / 0-)

          were holding the distorted form of socialism argument at the time weren't they? I didn't know about the campaign to eliminate the Law of Value, that is very interesting. Will hotlist the diary so that I can pull up the link when I have more time, thanks Justina. Perhaps I can write something (I was trying to get a friend on site that is really an expert on this to write it); certainly I have studied that chapter and learned it from one of the great fundamentalist marxist economists, Anwar Shaikh. I can do it for the ACM or ACC, which do you think would be more appropriate? If we do it ACM more people will be here for a discussion, if I do it ACC, I do not waste a space that could be used for a discussion that would be important. The ACM was to be for less urgent work that people could discuss; I could do it for one of my diary spaces or do it in the New Year.

          "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

          by NY brit expat on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 05:37:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Anti-Capitalist Meet-Up Vs. Anti-Capitalist Chat. (2+ / 0-)
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            TPau, NY brit expat

            I'm not sure everyone who is reading this post knows that we have two "anti-capitalist" forums.  This is the "Meet-UP" (otherwise known as ACM) which is posted on Sundays.  Articles can be posted on the "Anti-Capitalist Chat"(ACC) at any time during the week.  

            If you've missed seeing the "Anti-Capitalist Chat" please feel free to join us there too.

            NY brit expat, might be good to post the "law of value" article on the chat.  Actually, I agree with TPau that we need to have some basic Marx materials available for folks to read.  Maybe we could post them on the Chat and then reference them in Sunday's Meet-Up postings for people who are interested in gaining more background information.

            Convict Bush, Cheney and their torture cabal. Support single-payer health care,unions, and WikiLeaks.

            by Justina on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 06:06:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I think Coops are a good starting point (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TPau, NY brit expat

      for a post capitalist society. Once most workers have ownership and control over their own enterprises, it will be easier to make changes.

      The question is, how do we get there? Personally, while I support efforts to develop worker coops, I think we may ultimately need an Arab Spring inside the workplace.

      "Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of overcoming it" Helen Keller

      by Johnnythebandit on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 05:41:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It looks like Greece and Britain might be on... (0+ / 0-)

        their way there, but I don't know what it would take to make Americans move that way.

        "Being American means accepting the unacceptable."

        De air is de air. What can be done?

        by TPau on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 05:45:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I do not know about Britain, but (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TPau

          Spain and Greece are really in an uproar. Britain is still slowly building, but the fact that all public sector unions are balloting for a strike on November 30th is an excellent sign, there is still the need to get those working on austerity measures linked up with the unions that are pissed off about their pensions (they should really be screaming about the fact that 110,000 public sector workers have lost their jobs as well) and that has not happened yet.

          "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

          by NY brit expat on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 06:08:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Britain still seems miles ahead of us in the... (1+ / 0-)
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            NY brit expat

            States. People here seem to take every slap and betrayal in stride. They remind me of the horse in Animal Farm: "I will work harder."

            De air is de air. What can be done?

            by TPau on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 06:12:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  true, my references are to what is (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TPau

              happening in Europe and the periphery; using the US as a reference point means that they are literally in an uproar! oy ... sigh ...

              "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

              by NY brit expat on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 06:14:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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