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View Diary: Perry and Santorum spar over marijuana & why Dems should be pushing the issue. (42 comments)

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  •  That's ridiculous (0+ / 0-)

    a Supreme Court decision within the past decade has held precisely that the federal government can regulate medicinal marijuana on commerce clause grounds, Gonzales v. Raich.

    My personal preference is these laws are stupid on the grounds they are not enforced fairly (though constitutionally) or in a cost-efficient manner.  So, your entire premise in response is out of line (and I could say the same thing -- you're trying to say what's constitutional is what you like).  But the Constitution allows a whole bunch of bad stuff to happen.  How this is the "position I like" is deliberately dishonest on your part.  It's a Constitutional position I like, that there should be robust federal regulation of a wide variety of things, but applied to an area where I think it's unwisely applied, as I made abundantly clear.

    The only thing I oppose regarding "personal freedom" is the faulty intellectual assumption that the Constitution protects more than it actually does.  Calling something "freedom" and then bootstrapping a Constitutional argument on top of it is just circular reasoning.  As Oliver Wendell Holmes said of being a Justice, if my fellow citizens want to go to hell, it's my job to help them.  Now that wouldn't apply where there is a clear violation of a Constitutional right, or where a law unfairly burdens a protected class of citizens, to pick the two most prominent examples, but nobody has successfully proven a Constitutional violation from the application of a marijuana prohibition as a matter of substantive law.  That's just a straight-up fact.

    "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

    by Loge on Wed Sep 28, 2011 at 02:23:12 PM PDT

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    •  The justification of law is to aid in the (0+ / 0-)

      development of the society. And Holmes said a lot of seemingly bright stuff, but, when it comes down to it, he was only a more intelligent and coherent Scalia.

      See, my starting point is that I'm your worst nightmare. I was the guy in law school that sold the pot to the faculty and the Law Review folks (but, actually I never sold to them, because I was astute enough to supply those people for free, and made up for it on what I charged the rest of the law school student body). So what you need to reconcile to have even a beginning point for your whole approach to the modern world is why I'm the only one in that scenario who experienced any legal repercussions from our societies drug war on itself, and why we can still keep churning out "legal minds" who are all too happy to construct facile "legal arguments" justifying what even you can't avoid describing as societal self destructive behavior.

      There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

      by oldpotsmuggler on Wed Sep 28, 2011 at 07:10:20 PM PDT

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      •  My worst nightmare (0+ / 0-)

        is scorpions attacking me in my sleep, not old hippie burnouts.

        Saying law exists to serve society can support nearly any position, including perhaps the polar opposite argument.  While legislatures got this question wrong, it's still the type of question im more comfortable with elected officials making (going back to the point that there are no fundamental rights at issue in pharmaceutical regulation or commercial transactions).  I'm all for changing these laws legislatively, not at all for cutting the knees out of the federal government in many areas, as is the price for doing so judicially.   So, I need to reconcile nothing.  Sometimes democracies make mistakes.  The choices are to support correcting them or not, and in the meantime to decide whether to follow or not follow the laws in question.  The only conflict emerges with people who break a law they support.  I follow one I think is unwise.

        Oh, and Holmes and Scalia believe mostly the exact opposite things, except that lochner style freedom of contract is bad law.

        "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

        by Loge on Wed Sep 28, 2011 at 09:25:44 PM PDT

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        •  Bought and paid for, owned lock, stock and barrel (0+ / 0-)

          legislatures?

          And a Supreme Court only nominally (at best) not there also?

          At some point in time you have to join the battle based on the legal system you have, not the one you wish you had.

          Dude (or dudette, as the case may be), only one of us is hallucinating, and it ain't me.

          There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

          by oldpotsmuggler on Thu Sep 29, 2011 at 07:42:54 PM PDT

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          •  you might not be hallucinating (0+ / 0-)

            but your comment makes zero sense.  

            just to begin, you think being forced to carry a fetus to term is an equivalent infringement on liberty of not being allowed to listen to Pink Floyd without the benefit of reefer.  So, i submit you don't have to hallucinate to be out of whack.

            oh, and I'm describing the legal system we have, and i wish we have.  if marijuana laws are struck down, i want it to be by legislative repeal, not by judicial fiat.  

            put that in your pipe and smoke it.

            "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

            by Loge on Thu Sep 29, 2011 at 08:24:19 PM PDT

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            •  Like I said - (0+ / 0-)

              "At some point in time you have to join the battle based on the legal system you have, not the one you wish you had."

              You're welcome to join the real world as soon as you're able to develop the moral strength to do so.

              When we imprison millions of our citizens, year after year, decade after decade, for doing nothing more than exhibiting behaviors that our bodies are hard wired to seek, we inflict grievious societal harm with absolutely no discernable offsetting benefit.

              And you're seemingly willing to perpetuate this injustice ad infinitum?

              There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

              by oldpotsmuggler on Thu Sep 29, 2011 at 08:49:35 PM PDT

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              •  so, you're repeating the line in your comment (0+ / 0-)

                that doesn't make any sense.

                Joining the real world involves recognizing limits.  And while I agree that imprisoning people for marijuana is not cost-effective, I don't see it as necessarily unconstitutional, and I don't see the Constitution as awful because it allows that.  Like I said, it deprives people of something they want to do, but that's the price of democracy.  

                The moral strength and real world, etc., is I do believe we should interpret the Constitution as it exists in such a way as to promote the best outcomes.  Nevertheless, sometimes ideas come in conflict.  In this case, throwing out the idea of regulating any kind of pharmaceuticals seems like a worse idea than criminalizing the occasional old pot smuggler.  

                And I maintain, simply saying what you want to do i equivalent to what the government shouldn't have the right to prohibit is just dishonest.  Being sober for a while isn't equivalent in the least to carrying a child against one's wishes.  This is true even while recognizing that marijuana prohibitions just don't work. They're bad ideas, as applied.  That should be good enough.

                I'm not going to join a battle I have no chance -- and have no arguments -- of winning.

                "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                by Loge on Thu Sep 29, 2011 at 09:04:20 PM PDT

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