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View Diary: Media Assuming Mormon Claims as Part of Christianity (189 comments)

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  •  Anybody who believes Jesus (8+ / 0-)

    was the Son of God- as absolutely ridiculous as I think that sounds- is a Christian.  

    The Mormon stuff is no goofier than the rest of the "he rose from the dead!" and "walked on water!" stuff.

    From Neocon to sane- thanks to Obama- and Kos.

    by satrap on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 01:50:06 PM PDT

    •  Your view is shallow. (0+ / 0-)

      I suppose you also agree that Scientology is a "religion."

      It is a calling...to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Ted Kennedy, True Compass

      by Timaeus on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 01:53:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It is "shallow" for (0+ / 0-)

        political purposes.   It needs to be shallow for poltical purposes.   What is this, Seminary school?

        From Neocon to sane- thanks to Obama- and Kos.

        by satrap on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 02:00:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Obviously it is Christians who determine who is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ravagerofworlds2

          or is not a Christian, not non-Christian atheists.

          It's not really that hard a point to grasp.

          It is a calling...to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Ted Kennedy, True Compass

          by Timaeus on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 02:24:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually, Timaeus, I think it's contested. (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            HeyMikey, cai, davidincleveland, BYw, The Nose

            Mormons consider themselves Christians.  Do they have a say in this?  Or just Christians who think Mormons aren't Christians?

            •  Yes, of course it's contested. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SadieB

              That means there are two sides.  The diarist is on one side, most Mormons are on the other.

              Non-Christians don't have authority to decide which side is correct.

              These are not judicial proceedings here. They are blog discussions.

              It is a calling...to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Ted Kennedy, True Compass

              by Timaeus on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 02:31:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                davidincleveland, BYw

                I'm not even sure about that.  In general, I'd err on the side of self-identification; you call yourself x, I'll let you be x.

                But this conversation isn't just the 19th-century one about whether Mormons are Christians.  It's about what's appropriate in the context of media and politics.  And I'd err on the side of inclusivity there as well.  So I think it's completely appropriate for people who are non Christians to say "They look the same to me"  if that's their experience.  There's certainly an argument there.

                So blog on with your bad self.

                •  That's probably the mainstream view both here (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ravagerofworlds2

                  and in the MSM:  religious beliefs aren't really serious, and everybody is free to believe whatever they want.

                  I knew a guy in college who was a big, blowhard, charlatan. He rented time on radio stations in Texas near the Mexican border and gave "sermons" where he pretended, in Spanglish, to be a Christian evangelist. Privately he'd get drunk and laugh his ass off about how stupid the people were who sent him money.

                  I think it's pretty reasonable for me to conclude he wasn't really a Christian, no matter how he self-identified on the radio.

                  Not the best example, I know, but I think there are lots of them.

                  The Christians have all, Catholic and Protestant and Orthodox alike, been saying for 2000 years that to be a Christian you have to believe a few basic things. Mormons deny those things, but still claim to be Christian. That approach has been quite effective in the United States, but it really doesn't make sense.

                  It is a calling...to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Ted Kennedy, True Compass

                  by Timaeus on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 03:03:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Mormons only date back to the 1800s (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus, SadieB, ravagerofworlds2

              there have Christians for 1800 years before they arrived.

              So the definition of Christian obviously pre-dates them and the only question is do the teachings of their church fit within that existing definition.

            •  Just the Christians who happen to agree with Tim. (0+ / 0-)

              "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

              by gustynpip on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 02:33:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I'm (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              davidincleveland

              I'm a Methodist. I think Mormons are Christians. I think this diary is actually HRable, but won't bother.

              I am Zornorph; the one who comes by night to the neighbor's yard.

              by Zornorph on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 03:59:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wow. What a great example of erudition. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ravagerofworlds2

                But you've done a good job of picking up on the politically correct sensibilities on this mainly anti-Christian site.

                It is a calling...to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Ted Kennedy, True Compass

                by Timaeus on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 06:23:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I think we're mostly anti-woowoo (0+ / 0-)

                  that's trying to pass itself off as The One And Only Absolutely Right And True Truth.

                  There ain't no such animal.

                  If it's
                  Not your body
                  Then it's
                  Not your choice
                  AND it's
                  None of your damn business!

                  by TheOtherMaven on Thu Oct 13, 2011 at 01:50:56 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  so you are against facts? (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm sorry, but most of the people (including Zornorph up above) are making a very simple mistake. Let me illustrate.

                    Person A is a horrible person with terrible ethos. Person A asserts that gravity is true, which is why they did some of the terrible things. The crowd in response to Person A's actions, decide that gravity must not be true, because Person A said them.

                    That is what is happening.

                    Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

                    by ravagerofworlds2 on Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 12:51:20 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Sure. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ubertar, davidincleveland, BYw

        It's a belief in insubstantial claims that can't be proven, don't make rational sense, and don't hold up to empirical evidence.

        Why, how do you define religion?

        Being partisan and being right are not mutually exclusive.

        by DynamicUno on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 02:13:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's not the point. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Stein, ravagerofworlds2

          As I said above, I'm opposed to Romney because he is a Republican, not because he is a Mormon, and I would not refuse to vote for somebody because of being Mormon.  Some of the best lawyers in my professional association are Mormons and I have great admiration for them.

          Nevertheless, we're supposed to be a reality-based community here, and it's reasonable for somebody like the diarist to point out that many Christians have good reason to regard the Mormons as heretics and not genuine Christians.

          It's really silly for non-Christians who know nothing of these matters to contradict the diarist.

          Suppose some group claimed that Muslims are actually Jews because they both follow the Abrahamic faith.  Would you not agree that Jews would have a right to refute that?

          The diarist's main point is the blankness of the media on this topic. He has a point.

          It is a calling...to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Ted Kennedy, True Compass

          by Timaeus on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 02:29:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  non-Christians know more (0+ / 0-)

            than you give them credit for. Most Atheists in the USA are former Christians who left because they learned more than the average believer. Saying our voice is irrelevant is a great way to ignore the opinions of a large group that is more educated than average.

            •  learned more about what? (0+ / 0-)

              I'm a social scientist, my wife is an aquatic biologist. Both of us are believers, despite coming from different socio-economic and denominational backgrounds. Both of us have Masters and are in the final stages of our PhDs. So what are you claiming exactly? After all, 81% of American University Professors consider themselves spiritual people (ie, not atheists).

              Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

              by ravagerofworlds2 on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 08:39:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  about Christianity (0+ / 0-)

                That is the subject of the diary.
                Spiritual does not equal Christian, just ask Einstein.
                The higher you go on the respected scientist lists the smaller that percentage of Christian is.

                •  Ha ha ha ha ha. What an ignorant (0+ / 0-)

                  and bigoted comment! It's just not true.

                  It is a calling...to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Ted Kennedy, True Compass

                  by Timaeus on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 09:29:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  ? (0+ / 0-)

                    What part of this is bigoted? It's a simple statement about the percentage of religious belief among scientists. For respected think NAS & AAAS members or similar organizations. See my response to ravagerofworlds2 for a link.

                •  please provide a link (0+ / 0-)

                  when making claims as general as "The higher you go on a respected scientist lists the smaller that percentage of Christian is."

                  Otherwise- it is just a claim sans evidence and warrant.

                  Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

                  by ravagerofworlds2 on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 10:21:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  here is a link (0+ / 0-)

                    http://www.stephenjaygould.org/...
                    I was unaware saying religious belief drops off as you go up the chain in scientific organizations was controversial. I've seen that correlation acknowledged from both sides of the religious divide.

                    •  an intersting link (0+ / 0-)

                      An interesting link

                      It was difficult to find the original instance of the article in Nature due to problems in the link's citation. To further compound things, when I did find the actual printing of the Nature article- it was in the "commentary section." I was unable to determine whether the commentary section was peer reviewed or not. Even when all this is said and done…. The evidence you are arguing- the correlation of “greater scientists” and disbelief, is not actually argued in the published Commentary.

                      Here is what Larson/Witham says in the published version of Nature-

                      “Due to the dramatic expansion in the US scientific community since 1916, our survey polled only about 3 per cent of the biological and physical scientists and mathematicians listed in the 1995 American Men and Women of Science. From his listing, Leuba reached more than 20 per cent of these groups. In Leuba’s day, the editors of the reference book went through the painstaking process of deciding who were “great scientists” compared to ordinary, and an asterisk was put by those names. Thus, Leuba could analse belief among the great compared to “ordinary.” He found a higher amount of disbelief among great scientists, but this was a category we could not test- the asterisks do not appear in modern editions.”

                      So… are you arguing for data that is from 1916 about the current scientific community? Or that I should trust that correspondence to a fan site for Gould is actually from Larson/Witham? I am a healthy skeptic- you should appreciate that.

                      Even so- let’s compare the results from the 1916 and 1996 surveys from the 1000 person random sample.

                      Belief in personal God (1916 is 41.8 and in 1996 is 39.3)
                      Disbelief in personal God (1916 is 41.5 and in 1996 is 45.3)
                      Doubt or agnosticism (1916 is 16.7 and in 1996 is 14.5)

                      There is no margin of error reported- but even with a 5% standard, there would be no significant deviation, even by just eyeballing these basic figures. The original Nature article is exactly that- no change, hence, it’s real title “Scientists are still keeping the faith”

                      As a social scientists at a research 1 university, I am well acquainted with how to judge academic papers in my field (and measuring belief in a co-culture is definitely in my ballpark)- so I give you citations from peer reviewed sources on this very subject.

                      Religious Beliefs: Their dynamics in two groups of life scientists.Full Text Available By: Falcao, Eliane Brigida Morais. International Journal of Science Education, Jul2008, Vol. 30 Issue 9, p1249-1264

                      Probing scientists' beliefs: how open-minded are modern scientists? By: Coll, Richard K.; Taylor, Neil. International Journal of Science Education, 5/14/2004, Vol. 26 Issue 6, p757-778

                      The Conflict Between Religion and Science in Light of the Patterns of Religious Belief Among Scientists. By: Brown, C. Mackenzie. Zygon: Journal of Religion & Science, Sep2003, Vol. 38 Issue 3, p603

                      If you have access to a research library then you should be able to find any of these articles. If not, I cannot lawfully provide them to you here. If you send me a message and provide an email address, I’ll see whether I can email you a copy of the pdfs- some are immune to attachments. : /

                      At any rate, I would point out that science and religion have gone hand in hand since the first Museum was created by Aristotle (they worshipped Philosophy), since Ibn al-Haytham in the 10th century used repetition and experimental research to test his theories, and since Francis Collins, the research leader of the Human Genome project, wrote The Language of God (an argument for science, for god and how he converted from atheism to Christianity based on his ground breaking research).

                      As someone at a Research 1 university, I meet a lot of atheists and agnostics, but I meet a lot more believers- in Christianity, in Islam, in etc. We have graduate students and faculty from all over the world. And you know what I have found? The only people evangelizing their beliefs are the militantly atheist. It’s like some kind of zealoutry for them- they see a believer, it’s time for a throwdown. And what do I encounter from them? People who are ignorant of the belief systems that they target for ridicule and derision.

                      Socrates said: “A fool knows everything, a wise man knows nothing.”

                      Words to live by in my opinion.

                      Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

                      by ravagerofworlds2 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 at 08:01:45 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  I believe that Scientology is a religion (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gustynpip, second gen, BYw

        For the purposes of the Constitution.

        •  Well, we disagree. Like several countries that (5+ / 0-)

          have outlawed them, I think they're a criminal conspiracy, not a "religion."

          It is a calling...to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Ted Kennedy, True Compass

          by Timaeus on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 02:25:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Why not both (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            The Nose

            Plenty of religions have behaved as criminal groups. Being a religion is a great way to get society to ignore warning signs of criminality.

            •  cults are things like Jim Jones (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus

              and are dangerous. All the people in Jim Jones' church were following Christ, until Jim Jones became Christ and created their commune in South America.

              Scientology is currently listed as a religious institution worthy of tax exempt status. They are not however, claiming to be Christians. If the US government defines the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a religion, for legal purposes it is, but among most people... they do not accept it, or its tongue in cheek adherents as being part of a real religion.

              Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

              by ravagerofworlds2 on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 08:42:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Scientology is a religion (0+ / 0-)

                The leaders of Scientology should get arrested for quite a few things. They have not been arrested because they are a religion. That is the main point of my post.

                •  Gosh, you're wrong on everything. (0+ / 0-)

                  It is a calling...to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Ted Kennedy, True Compass

                  by Timaeus on Tue Oct 11, 2011 at 09:29:53 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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