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View Diary: Ex-Gay Pastor Admits No One Ever Changed Sexuality (157 comments)

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  •  Um, no. I understand your anger, but the law (14+ / 0-)

    does not work that way. Now if people wanted to sue for fraud that might be a more productive way to punish this guy legally.

    After all they were claiming they changed peoples sexuality and he just admitted that it never happened so it seems like it might have been fraud to continue to claim so.

    But you can't prove murder or even man slaughter for induced stress. No law in any state is that broad. You have to have intent or 'guilty mind' to commit a crime most of the time.

    Getting Democrats together and keeping them that way is like herding cats that are high on meth, through L.A., during an earthquake, in the rain -6.25, -6.10

    by Something the Dog Said on Mon Oct 17, 2011 at 07:14:44 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Pain and suffering baby! (4+ / 0-)

      With Malice aforethought, since these guys know exactly how successful their ideas are.

      http: detroitmechworks.blip.tv My little wiseass review show.

      by detroitmechworks on Mon Oct 17, 2011 at 07:17:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If someone dies of suicide (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Philpm, i like bbq, Brown Thrasher

      because of the abuse of this program, is there no legal recourse?

      And she's good at appearing sane, I just want you to know. Winwood/Capaldi

      by tobendaro on Mon Oct 17, 2011 at 07:27:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No. Because the affirmative act was on the part (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Philpm, tobendaro, FrugalGranny, bythesea

        of the person that killed themselves. We don't usually attach culpability to people who don't do the deed.

        Getting Democrats together and keeping them that way is like herding cats that are high on meth, through L.A., during an earthquake, in the rain -6.25, -6.10

        by Something the Dog Said on Mon Oct 17, 2011 at 07:40:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What about the cases where bullying leads to (4+ / 0-)

          suicide.  It's been done in person; it's been done on websites like Facebook.  And it's been charged.  I don't recall the results, but I don't think people have got off scot free.

          •  I dont think anyone was charged with a homocide (4+ / 0-)

            in any of those cases. Bullying is often covered under other statues.

            Getting Democrats together and keeping them that way is like herding cats that are high on meth, through L.A., during an earthquake, in the rain -6.25, -6.10

            by Something the Dog Said on Mon Oct 17, 2011 at 08:37:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  There is a significant difference (6+ / 0-)

            If someone voluntarily attended this program and was free to leave, I don't think you can lump that in with bullying; bullying pretty much implies that someone was the subject of unwanted abuse.

            The key could be whether people were actually free to leave.

            •  The diary implies that people couldn't leave (4+ / 0-)

              on their own.  I don't know whether this is the same as an addiction clinic where you sign yourself in for a period of time, including a voluntary incarceration, but perhaps each of these "treatment centers" has to be considered on a case by case basis.  If someone is there involuntarily, there ought to be some legal recourse.  If they were committed there by their parents, I'd think a legal recourse could be based on child abuse, considering the treatments described.  You'd need a pretty open-minded jury, though I have heard these exist even in Utah.

              •  I think it implies that they could (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ColoTim, FrugalGranny, bythesea

                They just "had" to go through some BS fake funeral first, where they were subjected to more persuasion.  If someone were to push the issue, I'd think it would come down to whether they were forcibly detained in some way.

                It's all pretty vague/theoretical at this point; is there an actual case where someone committed suicide after going through one of these programs?  Obviously, it can be a little difficult to discuss all of the various potential facts when it's something that hasn't even happened yet.

          •  i don't think anyone's been charged (6+ / 0-)

            with homicide.  In some cases, the bullying might amount to harassment or intimidation or stalking that could, itself be illegal.  There's a doctrine called the "intervening wrongful act," and while in some cases you could argue something is reasonably foreseeable, it's not easy. you shoot someone, they drive to the emergency room, the doctor uses the wrong blood type -- you could still be on the hook.  You shoot someone, they drive to the emergency room and get hit by a drunk driver, maybe not.  A suicide in some cases weeks or years later is just too attenuated in my book to charge reckless indifference homicide.  

            "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

            by Loge on Mon Oct 17, 2011 at 08:41:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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