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View Diary: Paul Ryan calls Pell Grants 'unsustainable' and tells students to work three jobs to pay for college (161 comments)

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  •  The ease of access of loans is the problems (0+ / 0-)

    There some strange federal laws that tie tuition hikes to student loans so easy-to-get loans are a big reason why tuition keeps rising so much.

    Honestly, I think half the populace would be better off going to a specific trade school or apprenticeship that trains you for a job that majoring in some random liberal art major while having no real plan for life. They would be much better off later in life with a decent paying job and no student loans. We actually lack Plumbers, electricians(these jobs pay around 45k-50k a few years in) and other specialities. Morticians are always in a shortage and the average salary for that is well over $100k. All you need is a 2-year trade school, not a 4-year degree.

    •  That's a rightwing meme (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cactusflinthead, Matt Z

      It's just not true.

      Tuition is rising because of cuts in funding.

      If you look at the top of the line, which is cost per student, it is NOT rising faster than inflation. only tuition is rising. This tells you that colleges are holding the line on costs while receiving less subsidy.

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 05:18:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You really should watch some videos (0+ / 0-)

        On youtube made by the left wing that states that any university that gets public funding or support needs to match tuition with loans to a certain degree. There is legislation that mandates that. And college loans are as easy as heck to get because the loan officer does not take into your account your ability to pay back the loan after graduation.

        Your argument doesn't make any sense either, tuition was going up by 8% a year even before they had to cut funding. Long before that. Even in 2001-2006 when it was good, it was going up just as fast as now. There is actually a federal mandate to match tuition to amount of loans available. Look it up.

        •  They've been cutting funding since the early (0+ / 0-)

          1980s. I know this issue like the back of my hand from doing research, not watching a couple youtube videos made by propagandists.

          Read this:

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 07:04:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Its not just videos (0+ / 0-)

            Its not just videos, I've read a lot of articles too.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            Cutting funding and ease of getting loans are the two main reasons. I don't get my news from dailykos. Kos I realize is just an opinion column and is just as far left as fox news is far right, not represenative for the American centered and both are heavily bias.

            Problem is a lot of kids really don't know what the hell they are doing in college and don't belong there. Most cases when a kid drops out, its not due to lack of money.

            •  In the extensive study I linked to in my (0+ / 0-)

              diary, there is absolutely nothing correlating loans to rise in tuition. Why? Because the cost per student hasn't risen above inflation. If school costs aren't rising, then you need to tell me precisely what impact loans are having. Tuition is rising, but tuition is very different from actual cost.

              Let me put it this way. When I was in college in the 1980s, the cap for subsidized student loans was $2.75k. Now it's $5.3k. That's not a huge increase over the last 25 years. To argue that this 100% increase over 20 years has lead to a 250% increase in tuition is kind of like arguing that providing universities with research money has also driven up tuition. But we can't confuse revenue with what a school charges when the actual cost of education tracks much much closer to the increase in student loans over that period, which itself tracks closer to inflation.

              At 3% inflation over 25 years, you get a 100% increase. That correlates to the rise in loans and the actual cost of education.

              The outlier is tuition which has risen much faster.

              There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

              by upstate NY on Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 01:52:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Its not the subsidized ones (0+ / 0-)

                Its the private un-subsidized ones that are as easy as crap to get that are driving the costs up. Among other factors, it gives schools the impressions that most people can afford it so they can pull back funding and let tuition hikes do the rest. I'm sure your right about state funding having a lot to do with public universities raising costs but private colleges have also spiked up in price.

                Basically, my original post was just to say that a large portion of the people who go to college don't belong there. Thats why the drop-out rate is so high and so many people graduate college not having any sort of plan for life. Most of these people would do better going to a trade school for a specific profession.

                •  On your first point, the study below (0+ / 0-)

                  looks at private colleges and determines that it's the need to maintain a need-blind admissions policy that drove up tuition in the privates, so that they can redistribute it to needy students. The report author says that this extraction for rich students, who pay ABOVE the cost of actual study (i.e. at private schools, tuition is above the actual cost per student) may be unfair because it forces these families to fund poorer students.

                  I agree that loans above gov't loans are ridiculous but I truly wonder how pervasive this is since the national average for student loan debt per student tracks with the cap on subsidized gov't loans (for 4 years). Seems as though those who owe above $25-30k are outliers. You're right that it's a huge problem for those students, but not something that is so large it inflates costs. And, the $23k average number includes debt for grad and professional students in law, medicine, etc.

                  Private schools are addressing these imbalances by moving away from need-blind admission and admitting more rich students, which will allow them to cap tuition increases. 35-40% of all tuition money is redistributed to poor and needy students. Now they won't have to do that, so tuition will be capped.

                  Finally, the USA is tracking higher education in other countries with 65% of high school grads attending college. The USA also has a very high drop out rate for high school. In this world economy, if we drop the number of college attendees to below what others in, say, Europe and Asia are doing, we will have fewer qualified people to take part in a high-tech high-production economy.

                  Even the trades, electricians, plumbing, etc., these are saturated professions as well. They won't grow more lucrative either unless and until we have growth at the top.

                  There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                  by upstate NY on Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 06:07:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Here's the thing about it (0+ / 0-)

                    In some systems like France for example, students are put on a track from when they are very young as to who will go to college, who will go to trade school, etc. Now, this is too restrictive and I don't favor it but you have to realize that 70% of our students are major in some form of Liberal art or soft science. These have few applications in the real world unless you go to graduate school. Graduating a bunch of creative writing majors does not somehow solve our need for more domestic engineers and also doesn't help the unemployment problem. There are many companies now that are hiring for technical roles and having trouble filling those rolls because they can't hire a college grad with a degree in liberal arts because they simply don't have the skills.

                    Most of the people who drop out of college because of non-financial reasons(which would be the majority of them) don't belong in college and should have went to a trade school We actually lack skilled tradesmen like electricians and especially morticians(average pay of $115,000/year) right now but no one wants to go to trade school because its somehow puts you below the level of a college grade even though you will get a decent middle-class job while that creative writing major is likely to be unemployed in this economy. Too many American students are just bent on having a good time in college and therefore choosing the easiest major available instead of long-term planning for the future.

                    •  Just wondering: do you deal with students (0+ / 0-)

                      in the Liberal Arts? I do. Your idea that the Liberal Arts do not provide employable skills is just wrong. It's not only wrong based on my experiences keeping touch with my students, it's wrong based on data retrieved from Payscale which shows that students with English and History degrees earn MORE on average than students with degrees in professional jobs.

                      They are not unemployable. In an information economy, the likes of which we have today, even English majors are trained in research methodologies which serve them well, and are necessary for corporations. I can give you many examples of students without engineering/technical training who ended up heading project teams precisely because computer engineers and such were incapable of doing the necessary research for client relations and also communicating properly with clients.

                      It's quite odd to see people with technical wherewithal trying to organize a project, then relying on the person in the room with the least technical capability to head the project precisely because they have an aesthetic capability that's informed by research.

                      Did you see what Steve Jobs said about the influence of the liberal arts courses he took on his innovations at Apple?

                      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                      by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 05:53:33 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Payscale isn't reliable (0+ / 0-)

                        If you look at the average salaries from actual college stats, engineers are by far the highest. LAS colleges also generally have the lowest % employment and underemployed after college. Sure, there will be some that find good jobs, but its much harder to find a good-paying job when you in a degree that doesn't train you for a specific job. Most English majors I know ended up as teachers and that is just fine because they had a solid life plan. But many of the LAS major didn't have any sort of plan and are now underemployed and doing stuff like working as a waitress(there's nothing wrong with this but it is not using you education). Most all of the highest paying jobs are tech related out of college. An English major simply does not have to skills to design and solve equations to build bridges or design a computer circuit. These are the services that are in demand. The vast majority of people I meet who can't find a job major in a Liberal art or soft science. I hardly ever meet an computer engineer who can't find a job.

                        •  Yes, engineers are the highest paid, but that's (0+ / 0-)

                          just a subset of the skills an economy needs. There are a range of other professions that liberal arts degrees provide a good background for. I was referring to business, finance, majors, etc. The idea that education is about job training is a poor one, IMO. As I said in the Jobs example, the kind of work liberal arts majors are responsible for is valuable on so many levels. Do most English majors become teachers? No. Not true. We track these things. The vast majority do not.

                          Newsflash: we are not only building bridges in this country or designing a computer circuit. We are analyzing information, we're interfacing with customers, even the computer programmer who is involved in creating a customer relations website that allows the customer to access information about the supply-chain is often guided by people from the Liberal Arts overseeing these projects. I have undergrads getting out with $60k jobs in corporations needing literacy and research skills.

                          The vast majority of LA can't find a well paying job? I'm going to call you on that and require proof for such a statement.

                          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                          by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 12:33:28 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You can argue your points (0+ / 0-)

                            But statistically liberal arts majors have some of the lowest average starting salaries and unemployment rates straight out of college according to their own schools(perhaps its different for the Ivy's leagues but 99% of people don't go to those schools). Many of the kinds of jobs you state don't require any specific sort of major. You just need a more outgoing personality. More and more these days, business are promoting engineers with these types of personalities into management roles instead of hiring from the outside. A business or engineering major can do it just as easily as a liberal arts major and many of them are taking on the roles. But you can't reverse that for engineering majors. A business or liberal arts major cannot in return do the job of an engineer because they don't have the skills.

                            Also I didn't say that the vast majority of Liberal Arts majors can't find decent jobs, I said the vast majority of the unemployed and underemployed(about 20% of the population) that happen to be college graduates tend to come from LAS and its strictly because those majors do not tailor themselves to a specific kind of job and these days companies and looking for people with specific training and skills out of college.

                            Also, look at where the job growth and positionings are opening up in the future. Most of the job growth are either in healthcare(a lot in the IT departments) or technical fields. While these tech companies might hire 1 or 2 project managers from every 10 engineers, that is not the proportion we are graduating people at. We graduate about 6 to 7 LAS for every engineer in our country. These a large disparities in what we need and what our young people learning. These's not enough math and science people and a heavy demand for them and there's an oversupply of other majors.

                          •  Payscale proves you wrong (0+ / 0-)

                            as English earns more on average than the business majors you cite.

                            Business majors and engineers also tend to have very poor literacy skills. They are not drilled in research methodologies and tend to lack the critical skills that produce the kind of sound aesthetic decisions that come from people in design. You say they just hire engineers for management positions and yet my students who got in as writers on the ground floor ended up managing engineering teams without any technical know-how. AND, many of them by the way were trained in internet languages necessary for their jobs and have become experts. It's not as hard as you make it out to be.

                            Show me a study that proves what you're saying. You're making a lot of ungrounded assertions. Where are you finding that most of the out of work are from Liberal Arts majors?

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 01:41:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Engineers know how to research (0+ / 0-)

                            Engineers on average take far more science and experimental classes than English or liberal art majors, they are well-versed on how to do scientific research.

                            http://www.studentsreview.com/...

                            I'm not in college anymore(graduated 2006) so I don't have access to college stats anymore so I can only come up with internet links(I will try to find some from specific schools) but from that link, the average business salary(both starting and mid-career) are higher than those who major in English by a significant margin.

                            I don't really trust sites like that and payscale because they are self-reported. You keep on referring to payscale, its a very unreliable source as people who can't find a job or are below the mean many times don't report. I looked at actual stats my university had while I was there and LAS on average was the lowest of the major colleges.

                            If your seriously using payscale or students review instead of college stats, your not getting an accurate picture of how much people are making.

                          •  Research in an information economy (0+ / 0-)

                            And I don't buy it anyway. I'm well versed in our databases on campus and there's a world of difference between the elsevier provides to scientists and what it provides to others. The model for scientists is a couple page extract, while in the Humanities we get books. I'm talking about culling information.

                            You link to student - review which is self-reported, and you ignore payscale which is the most reputable source around. As for individual colleges, they don't do a great job but even if they did, you'd only know about individual colleges, not the aggregate. It's the best source around, and it's even used by higher administration in the R1 university where I teach. It's the best source they have, and the school actually pays for their services.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 06:36:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  For sites like payscale and student review (0+ / 0-)

                            For sites like payscale and student review(the site I mentioned), salaries for engineers seem to be about what their college reports as the average while salaries for many LAS and some Business Majors(like economics and marketing) are grossly inflated from what college's average are. Thats the issue with self-reporting sites.

                          •  You really think an average salary for a Lit. (0+ / 0-)

                            major is grossly inflated at $43k? Many of the students that report back to me are higher than that.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 06:41:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I meant 39k (0+ / 0-)

                            That's what PayScale reported. Philosophy is at 39k as well.

                            Coupling ALL the Liberal Arts together is problematic since it includes certain majors which are indeed low-paying (i.e. Art History) but the core Humanities (History, Literature, etc.) do just as well as business and such.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 06:44:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Look at my other reply (0+ / 0-)

                            Your taking the highest ones within Liberal Arts. English itself is rated at a few thousand lower while both Business and International Business are above $40k. I don't know how you got that business majors don't make more.

                          •  To add on (0+ / 0-)

                            Your taking the highest paying majors in liberal arts(lit) and comparing to the lowest ones in business(Plain Business and marketing). Thats not really a fair comparison. If you look at other higher-paying business majors within the school of business like finance, international business, Management information systems(which is not to be confused with IT), Supply Chain management(which happens to be my major), or Industrial Design(ID)(this one is sometimes in the engineering or tech school instead of business), they are all much higher than the highest paying LAS majors.

                            The one that stands out is economics. But econ isn't really an LAS major. Its listed under business school as much as often as in LAS and for some colleges, both schools have them.

                            Besides engineering, Math and hard Science get good salaries, then business, and most LAS majors are at the bottom. Realistically in today's world, that's how it is. There will always be standouts of course, but in terms of salary and employment prospects, engineering, math, science take the cake, then you have business, and then LAS.

                            Payscale is by far not the only source that lists them in that order.

                          •  ??? Economics is always under LAS (0+ / 0-)

                            never under business. Why? Because it incorporates behavioral considerations. Ever read Adam Smith and Marx?

                            But I didn't compare the highest LA majors. I was comparing the most popular ones, and I didn't compare economics or Lit. to the lowest ones. I compared Lit. and History to Business. I don't see where you found me comparing it to marketing. Where did I do that? You're putting words in my mouth. Payscale lists Business pretty clearly.

                            Show me what Payscale chart you're referring to because the one I just checked is vastly different than what you're saying.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:24:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  English make more in the median (0+ / 0-)

                            and longterm.

                            You're right they make less by $2k entry, but in the median term they make more by $6k.

                            Whether you're calling English and History the "highest ones" or not, you can check at any school and you'll find that over 90% of LA majors are in those fields. Art History and the like are pretty small departments.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:21:38 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Look at the NACE report (0+ / 0-)

                            Here's a much more accurate and researched report coming directly from colleges and employers. These are 2009 numbers(I doubt it has changed dramatically in 2 years)

                            http://www.universitylanguage.com/...

                            Employment rates are much trickier to find online as colleges are hard-pressed to release those

                          •  I'd like to see the report but the link (0+ / 0-)

                            from the page you sent me to is broken.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 06:41:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You can't access it unless your a member (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't think you can access NACE's reports unless your a member. But they come directly from colleges and employers with the self-selection bias from a place like Pay-Scale. Stats from individual colleges and research reports are far and away superior to any self-reporting scale like payscale. And even pay-scale says business majors make more:

                            http://www.payscale.com/...

                            Major                             Starting    Median

                            International business: $41,600 - $83,700
                            Business: $41,000 - $70,500
                            English: $37,100 - $65,800

                            Engineering pretty much dominates the majors with the highest salaries, followed by math/science, and business.

                            Pretty much every Liberal Arts degree is near the bottom.

                            Even your "most reliable source for salaries" clearly shows that LAS majors make the least on average of anyone.

                            Now, there's something to be said about doing what you love(or in the case of people on my floor at college), partying as much as possible. But there's a price to be paid for it.

                          •  You're just wrong on what PayScale says (0+ / 0-)

                            It has Lit and other LAS making $2k less than Business but then has them making more in the longterm.

                            Which makes sense. LAs are real degrees, Business is a bogus professional degree with little meat to it. Incurious people usually take business classes. Over the long-term, the LAs do better according the Payscale.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:26:35 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually look at the graph (0+ / 0-)

                            http://www.payscale.com/...

                            International business starts off higher and the median is about 10k higher than even Lit or Psych. So are supply chain management and other majors in the school of businesses. Econ is in business half the time(it was in business at my school and LAS at the same time) and is group with finance and accounting when done so. Hard sciences like Math and Physics are the only ones in LAS that outpace the higher paying business majors.

                            Lit and Psych are the only two of the non hard sciences in LAS that outpace at median the lowest paying majors in business. Its right there in the link. How do you not see it? I've taken LAS, business, and engineering courses, the only ones that were challenging were the engineering ones. Once I switched from taking engineer courses to taking LAS and Business courses, I went from lower-middle tier of the class to the top of the class. Writing and business management courses as well as Econ and history courses were all grade boosters for me. Don't kid yourself into thinking that kids don't decide on LAS majors because they are easy and they want to have a good time.

                            Also, take a look at an research article that came out in the last few weeks:

                            http://www.nytimes.com/...

                            Young graduates who majored in [b]education and teaching or engineering[/b] were most likely to find a job requiring a college degree, while area studies majors — those who majored in Latin American studies, for example — and [b]humanities majors[/b] were least likely to do so. Among all recent education graduates, 71.1 percent were in jobs that required a college degree; of all area studies majors, the share was 44.7 percent.

                            I can find many more studies and payscales that say the same(basically every piece of actual research done on salaries by major). Even Payscale averages business school majors higher than LAS majors.

                          •  You're twisting things by (0+ / 0-)

                            disaggregating aspects of business and then lumping non-hard science LAS together.

                            The link you give mentioned Area Studies (which is interdisciplinary and not housed in a single department) with the Humanities at large. Yet without a breakdown, I can't know if they're referring to Art History or Literature or History. I'd like to see a breakdown. it would be very telling.

                            As for your taking courses in all the fields, did you take Senior level Liberal Arts courses? It's one thing to take a general requirement, quite another to take an advanced course. I took Math and Physics in school but not at an advanced level.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 08:30:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah right (0+ / 0-)

      We don't need no stinking liberal arts majors. Nobody to write the news or teach children or make art or any of the other liberal artsy things. Oh hell no, we need to squelch creativity and make everybody get down in the ditch or up in the attic or better yet out there in the morgue. Brilliant!
      Quit being a tool. Thanks.

      Putting on the spectacles of science in expectation of finding an answer to everything looked at signifies inner blindness. -- J(ames) Frank Dobie

      by cactusflinthead on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 09:25:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  we only need some of them (0+ / 0-)

        There's an issue when 70%+ or more of our graduates are major in Liberals arts without any sort of plan of what their going to do next. If you major in something that doesn't directly apply to a job, you better have a plan. Unfortunately for most people on my floor when I went to college, they ended up choosing the easiest major so we can party.

        We don't need 10 artists for every 1 engineer we produce, its just not practical in today's world.

        •  so... (0+ / 0-)

          you are all ready to tell someone to do what You want them to do?
          you have all their plans laid out before them.
          Get stuffed.
          You have no better plan for them than to put them in a puddle of sweat. I am there. I live there and breathe the dust of concrete. It does not serve me well. I would rather have the ten artists selling widgets because that is the gig they could find than ten engineers reckoning the next project that is so utterly removed from reality that it is trashed once it hits the work cycle.
          I have no problem with being a plumber, electrician or any of the other trades available. I would welcome the addition of thinking humans to my own trade, but I will not in any manner condone or approve of the dismissal of the liberal arts as any less than the bean counters.

          Putting on the spectacles of science in expectation of finding an answer to everything looked at signifies inner blindness. -- J(ames) Frank Dobie

          by cactusflinthead on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 10:35:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your not talking from a realistic standpoint (0+ / 0-)

            If you major in something that isn't applicable, you shouldn't expect to easily find a nice job out of college because you don't have the skills that employers need. Most of the new high-playing jobs are high tech. Your creative writing major isn't going to get your hired at one of these firms because they have almost no use for it.

            You can do whatever you want, but know that if you end up unemployed because you didn't have a solid plan its not the government's or wall street's fall, its your own fault.

            I mean for instance if you major in English, you should have plans to get a master's in education and be a teacher or something. That's actually a legit plan and if more young people actually had those planning skills, we'd all be a lot better off.  No one owes you a job after you graduate. You are entitled to the Pursuit of happiness, you are not entitled to happiness. Whether you are happy or not and your conditions are largely based on the decisions you made earlier in life.

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