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  •  You can argue your points (0+ / 0-)

    But statistically liberal arts majors have some of the lowest average starting salaries and unemployment rates straight out of college according to their own schools(perhaps its different for the Ivy's leagues but 99% of people don't go to those schools). Many of the kinds of jobs you state don't require any specific sort of major. You just need a more outgoing personality. More and more these days, business are promoting engineers with these types of personalities into management roles instead of hiring from the outside. A business or engineering major can do it just as easily as a liberal arts major and many of them are taking on the roles. But you can't reverse that for engineering majors. A business or liberal arts major cannot in return do the job of an engineer because they don't have the skills.

    Also I didn't say that the vast majority of Liberal Arts majors can't find decent jobs, I said the vast majority of the unemployed and underemployed(about 20% of the population) that happen to be college graduates tend to come from LAS and its strictly because those majors do not tailor themselves to a specific kind of job and these days companies and looking for people with specific training and skills out of college.

    Also, look at where the job growth and positionings are opening up in the future. Most of the job growth are either in healthcare(a lot in the IT departments) or technical fields. While these tech companies might hire 1 or 2 project managers from every 10 engineers, that is not the proportion we are graduating people at. We graduate about 6 to 7 LAS for every engineer in our country. These a large disparities in what we need and what our young people learning. These's not enough math and science people and a heavy demand for them and there's an oversupply of other majors.

    •  Payscale proves you wrong (0+ / 0-)

      as English earns more on average than the business majors you cite.

      Business majors and engineers also tend to have very poor literacy skills. They are not drilled in research methodologies and tend to lack the critical skills that produce the kind of sound aesthetic decisions that come from people in design. You say they just hire engineers for management positions and yet my students who got in as writers on the ground floor ended up managing engineering teams without any technical know-how. AND, many of them by the way were trained in internet languages necessary for their jobs and have become experts. It's not as hard as you make it out to be.

      Show me a study that proves what you're saying. You're making a lot of ungrounded assertions. Where are you finding that most of the out of work are from Liberal Arts majors?

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 01:41:14 PM PDT

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      •  Engineers know how to research (0+ / 0-)

        Engineers on average take far more science and experimental classes than English or liberal art majors, they are well-versed on how to do scientific research.

        http://www.studentsreview.com/...

        I'm not in college anymore(graduated 2006) so I don't have access to college stats anymore so I can only come up with internet links(I will try to find some from specific schools) but from that link, the average business salary(both starting and mid-career) are higher than those who major in English by a significant margin.

        I don't really trust sites like that and payscale because they are self-reported. You keep on referring to payscale, its a very unreliable source as people who can't find a job or are below the mean many times don't report. I looked at actual stats my university had while I was there and LAS on average was the lowest of the major colleges.

        If your seriously using payscale or students review instead of college stats, your not getting an accurate picture of how much people are making.

        •  Research in an information economy (0+ / 0-)

          And I don't buy it anyway. I'm well versed in our databases on campus and there's a world of difference between the elsevier provides to scientists and what it provides to others. The model for scientists is a couple page extract, while in the Humanities we get books. I'm talking about culling information.

          You link to student - review which is self-reported, and you ignore payscale which is the most reputable source around. As for individual colleges, they don't do a great job but even if they did, you'd only know about individual colleges, not the aggregate. It's the best source around, and it's even used by higher administration in the R1 university where I teach. It's the best source they have, and the school actually pays for their services.

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 06:36:13 PM PDT

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      •  For sites like payscale and student review (0+ / 0-)

        For sites like payscale and student review(the site I mentioned), salaries for engineers seem to be about what their college reports as the average while salaries for many LAS and some Business Majors(like economics and marketing) are grossly inflated from what college's average are. Thats the issue with self-reporting sites.

        •  You really think an average salary for a Lit. (0+ / 0-)

          major is grossly inflated at $43k? Many of the students that report back to me are higher than that.

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 06:41:58 PM PDT

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        •  I meant 39k (0+ / 0-)

          That's what PayScale reported. Philosophy is at 39k as well.

          Coupling ALL the Liberal Arts together is problematic since it includes certain majors which are indeed low-paying (i.e. Art History) but the core Humanities (History, Literature, etc.) do just as well as business and such.

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 06:44:13 PM PDT

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          •  Look at my other reply (0+ / 0-)

            Your taking the highest ones within Liberal Arts. English itself is rated at a few thousand lower while both Business and International Business are above $40k. I don't know how you got that business majors don't make more.

            •  To add on (0+ / 0-)

              Your taking the highest paying majors in liberal arts(lit) and comparing to the lowest ones in business(Plain Business and marketing). Thats not really a fair comparison. If you look at other higher-paying business majors within the school of business like finance, international business, Management information systems(which is not to be confused with IT), Supply Chain management(which happens to be my major), or Industrial Design(ID)(this one is sometimes in the engineering or tech school instead of business), they are all much higher than the highest paying LAS majors.

              The one that stands out is economics. But econ isn't really an LAS major. Its listed under business school as much as often as in LAS and for some colleges, both schools have them.

              Besides engineering, Math and hard Science get good salaries, then business, and most LAS majors are at the bottom. Realistically in today's world, that's how it is. There will always be standouts of course, but in terms of salary and employment prospects, engineering, math, science take the cake, then you have business, and then LAS.

              Payscale is by far not the only source that lists them in that order.

              •  ??? Economics is always under LAS (0+ / 0-)

                never under business. Why? Because it incorporates behavioral considerations. Ever read Adam Smith and Marx?

                But I didn't compare the highest LA majors. I was comparing the most popular ones, and I didn't compare economics or Lit. to the lowest ones. I compared Lit. and History to Business. I don't see where you found me comparing it to marketing. Where did I do that? You're putting words in my mouth. Payscale lists Business pretty clearly.

                Show me what Payscale chart you're referring to because the one I just checked is vastly different than what you're saying.

                There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                by upstate NY on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:24:32 AM PDT

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            •  English make more in the median (0+ / 0-)

              and longterm.

              You're right they make less by $2k entry, but in the median term they make more by $6k.

              Whether you're calling English and History the "highest ones" or not, you can check at any school and you'll find that over 90% of LA majors are in those fields. Art History and the like are pretty small departments.

              There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

              by upstate NY on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:21:38 AM PDT

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      •  Look at the NACE report (0+ / 0-)

        Here's a much more accurate and researched report coming directly from colleges and employers. These are 2009 numbers(I doubt it has changed dramatically in 2 years)

        http://www.universitylanguage.com/...

        Employment rates are much trickier to find online as colleges are hard-pressed to release those

        •  I'd like to see the report but the link (0+ / 0-)

          from the page you sent me to is broken.

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 06:41:07 PM PDT

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          •  You can't access it unless your a member (0+ / 0-)

            I don't think you can access NACE's reports unless your a member. But they come directly from colleges and employers with the self-selection bias from a place like Pay-Scale. Stats from individual colleges and research reports are far and away superior to any self-reporting scale like payscale. And even pay-scale says business majors make more:

            http://www.payscale.com/...

            Major                             Starting    Median

            International business: $41,600 - $83,700
            Business: $41,000 - $70,500
            English: $37,100 - $65,800

            Engineering pretty much dominates the majors with the highest salaries, followed by math/science, and business.

            Pretty much every Liberal Arts degree is near the bottom.

            Even your "most reliable source for salaries" clearly shows that LAS majors make the least on average of anyone.

            Now, there's something to be said about doing what you love(or in the case of people on my floor at college), partying as much as possible. But there's a price to be paid for it.

            •  You're just wrong on what PayScale says (0+ / 0-)

              It has Lit and other LAS making $2k less than Business but then has them making more in the longterm.

              Which makes sense. LAs are real degrees, Business is a bogus professional degree with little meat to it. Incurious people usually take business classes. Over the long-term, the LAs do better according the Payscale.

              There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

              by upstate NY on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:26:35 AM PDT

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              •  Actually look at the graph (0+ / 0-)

                http://www.payscale.com/...

                International business starts off higher and the median is about 10k higher than even Lit or Psych. So are supply chain management and other majors in the school of businesses. Econ is in business half the time(it was in business at my school and LAS at the same time) and is group with finance and accounting when done so. Hard sciences like Math and Physics are the only ones in LAS that outpace the higher paying business majors.

                Lit and Psych are the only two of the non hard sciences in LAS that outpace at median the lowest paying majors in business. Its right there in the link. How do you not see it? I've taken LAS, business, and engineering courses, the only ones that were challenging were the engineering ones. Once I switched from taking engineer courses to taking LAS and Business courses, I went from lower-middle tier of the class to the top of the class. Writing and business management courses as well as Econ and history courses were all grade boosters for me. Don't kid yourself into thinking that kids don't decide on LAS majors because they are easy and they want to have a good time.

                Also, take a look at an research article that came out in the last few weeks:

                http://www.nytimes.com/...

                Young graduates who majored in [b]education and teaching or engineering[/b] were most likely to find a job requiring a college degree, while area studies majors — those who majored in Latin American studies, for example — and [b]humanities majors[/b] were least likely to do so. Among all recent education graduates, 71.1 percent were in jobs that required a college degree; of all area studies majors, the share was 44.7 percent.

                I can find many more studies and payscales that say the same(basically every piece of actual research done on salaries by major). Even Payscale averages business school majors higher than LAS majors.

                •  You're twisting things by (0+ / 0-)

                  disaggregating aspects of business and then lumping non-hard science LAS together.

                  The link you give mentioned Area Studies (which is interdisciplinary and not housed in a single department) with the Humanities at large. Yet without a breakdown, I can't know if they're referring to Art History or Literature or History. I'd like to see a breakdown. it would be very telling.

                  As for your taking courses in all the fields, did you take Senior level Liberal Arts courses? It's one thing to take a general requirement, quite another to take an advanced course. I took Math and Physics in school but not at an advanced level.

                  There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                  by upstate NY on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 08:30:00 PM PDT

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