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View Diary: A Very Cool Little POLITICAL Book In An Engineering Library. (83 comments)

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  •  which says nothing (0+ / 0-)

    about the current regulatory and economic environment. I'm saying that your premise, that it is "damn near impossible to get one [wind farm] built" is unsupported by facts. Comparing nuclear power's rise to wind's rise is not only irrelevant but unproductive.

    Causation was, is, and ever shall be a slippery bitch, so we're best sticking with noting the facts

    by jam on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 07:39:01 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Muskegon Critic has had any (0+ / 0-)

      number of diaries right here at this site proving what I said . ..

      Plus there are numerous examples elsewhere ranging from the Air Force squelching projects to rampant NIMBYism in many places (the New York Times, for example, has an amusing series of articles about Upstate NY).

      The same thing goes for large scale solar - the last time I looked into it there were 5 or 6 molten salt projects being held up (compared to 0 or 1 actually being built) by so-called environmentalists and NIMBYists.

      The bottom line is that it IS damn near impossible to get these things built - in a sane world we'd be building them 10 to 100x faster than we are.

      •  anecdotal at best (0+ / 0-)

        I'm going to a ribbon cutting for a wind project on an Air Force base on Friday.

        Molten salt projects are being held up less for NIMBY than for economics. They are being switched to PV projects that are going forward.

        Not saying it is perfect, just that it is. But now, I'm not sure of what your point is. It is hard to build wind and solar, but impossible to build nuclear (in the U.S., Watts Bar 2 not withstanding).

        I would advocate for increasing the construction pace of all three technologies. But if you asked me to bet, I would have to place my money on wind being the dominate constructed energy supply (of the three, gas will win the day) over the next 10-15 years.

        Causation was, is, and ever shall be a slippery bitch, so we're best sticking with noting the facts

        by jam on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 08:06:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  According to Wikipedia (0+ / 0-)

          link - there was a burst of wind installations in 2008 & 2009 that appear to be tailing off.

          Presumably because of diminishing government incentives, indicating the technology based on it's own merits is not financially sound of yet . . . .

          And if you get a chance, I hope you ask your Air Force buddies about this: Air Force concerns about radar interference stall huge Oregon wind energy farm

          •  What? (0+ / 0-)
            Presumably because of diminishing government incentives, indicating the technology based on it's own merits is not financially sound of yet . . . .

            Why don't you just make up some more dumbass shit?

            First, there was this little thing called "The Great Recession" - maybe you have heard of it?

            Second, there have been no diminishing government incentives - the incentive structure has essentially stayed the same in the U.S.

            Third, "technology based on it's own merits is not financially sound" - you sound like a ridiculous market obsessed republican, because obviously, the market is perfectly incentivizing energy generation so that all of society's needs are perfectly met in the most efficient economic way possible. The electricity market is completed screwed up and incentivizes all of the wrong shit and doesn't take into account any externalities.

            Fourth, you obviously don't understand what the word anecdotal means.

            Fifth, for criminy sakes, do your damn research:

            The Shepherds Flat Wind Farm is an 845 megawatt (MW) wind farm under construction in Oregon, United States. The project is located in Eastern Oregon in both Morrow and Gilliam counties, near Arlington. Approved in 2008 by state regulators, groundbreaking came in 2009. The wind farm is being built by Caithness Energy using General Electric (GE) 2.5 MW wind turbines, and it will supply electricity to Southern California Edison.

            In April, 2011, Google announced they had invested $100 million in the project. The wind farm is estimated to have an economic impact of $16 million annually for Oregon. It is projected to be the largest land-based wind farm in the world when completed in 2012.

            Causation was, is, and ever shall be a slippery bitch, so we're best sticking with noting the facts

            by jam on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 10:41:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Bottom line - the Oregon wind (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bryfry

              project was delayed by 5 to 6 years by Air Force opposition.  But I see you have no plans to ask your buddies over there why . . . .

              Also, about the precipitous dip in wind installations over the past year - you're really going to blame that on the Great Recession?  When, at the very same time domestic coal and oil extraction have reached highs not seen in a generation.  That excuse totally does not pass even the most rudimentary smell test.

              •  You really are just making stuff up (0+ / 0-)
                This being a public forum, I'm not correcting you for your benefit. By pointing out your mistakes and emphasizing how very basic they are, I hope that those reading this will take away an important message from this exchange, so that the next time they run across some sort of idiotic, fearmongering claim on the Internet, they won't automatically take it at face value. I want them to question such claims with a bit of critical thought, and I want them to apply some context so that they understand, not just react. [bryfry]
                A months-long stand-off came to a close today after the Deputy Secretary of Defense informed U.S. Senators Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) and Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.) and U.S. Congressman Greg Walden (R-Ore.) that the Pentagon would no longer block construction of the Shepherds Flat Wind Farm in Oregon’s Gilliam and Morrow counties,

                Your claim of 5-6 years is unsupported by the facts provided by the DOD and Sen. Wyden and Merkley.

                CAGR 2007-2010 Electricity production
                Coal    Petroleum    Nuclear    Solar    Wind    All
                -2.8%    -17.5%    0.0%    28.5%    40.1%    -0.3%

                Coal is down. Petroleum is down. Nuclear is flat. Solar and Wind have grown by 30-40%. Overall, electrical production is down.

                Your claim that wind is dying and coal and petroleum (in the electricity sector) are booming is unsupported by the facts published by EIA.

                Coal Production in the US has not changed significantly in the past 20 years: 1029 million short tons in 1990, 1085 in 2010. The range is only 226 million short tons from min (945 in 1993) to max (1171 in 2008)

                Your claim that coal extraction has reached highs "not seen in a generation" is unsupported by the facts published by EIA.

                Causation was, is, and ever shall be a slippery bitch, so we're best sticking with noting the facts

                by jam on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 10:32:10 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Coal is being exported (0+ / 0-)

                  as fast as it can (Appalachian coal, for example, is limited by how fast it can be sent out the Chesapeake Bay - currently a huge bottleneck)

                  Coal exports through port booming

                  and a link to a largely ignored (who knows why - maybe it doesn't fit the populuar narrative of this site?) - pertaining to India's Coal Boom

                  And here's a link to the upswing in oil production under Obama (which, ironically, is never enough to keep the RW crazies happy - for fucks' sake, I really don't know why he keeps trying . . .)

                  •  and this has to do with (0+ / 0-)

                    US electricity production how?

                    Causation was, is, and ever shall be a slippery bitch, so we're best sticking with noting the facts

                    by jam on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 12:33:35 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Seems like there are compelling shades of (0+ / 0-)

                      outsourcing torture to the Uzbeckistans and Egyptians and then claiming "our hands are clean" that has eerie similarities to outsourcing our polluting industries to the Chinese (e.g., steel and concrete) and Indians (as I linked, they're massively expanding coal) and then similarily claiming "our hands are clean".

                      If you are OK with this, I really have no rebuttal.

                      To me, however, it is somewhat troubling (in a similar vein as to how Gemany has claimed the moral high ground from shutting down all the inefficient East German industries to meet the Kyoto Accords, something few other countries have done . .. )

                •  Roadbed Guy was fearmongering? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Roadbed Guy

                  Sorry, but I missed it.

                  Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
                  -- Albert Einstein

                  by bryfry on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 11:13:33 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, if I was, and it was (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bryfry

                    targeted at "business as usual" fossil fuels - then I'd wear the accusation as a badge of honor.

                    What really irks me, however, is those who point to (the incredibly paltry!!) gains in solar and wind as proof that everything is OK with the world . . ..

                    As I alluded to above, the only proven way to get off hydrocarbons is to engage is a full scale construction of nuclear power plants, something like was done in the 1960s and 70s . . .

                    •  yet (0+ / 0-)

                      Those incredibly paltry gains are just over 1000% more than the gains made by nuclear power in the United States over the past three years. (more of that percent talk again!)

                      I didn't say everything would be fine because wind and solar would save the day. In fact, I said

                      I would advocate for increasing the construction pace of all three technologies.

                      The tired argument that nuclear is "the only proven ..." is particularly irksome especially since I'm not arguing against nuclear, only for wind and solar. Like I also said earlier,

                      Comparing nuclear power's rise to wind's rise is not only irrelevant but unproductive.

                      Causation was, is, and ever shall be a slippery bitch, so we're best sticking with noting the facts

                      by jam on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:01:58 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  In that context, you could equally dis (0+ / 0-)

                        oil refineries - of which no new ones have been built since the 1970s.

                        Yet, the existing ones (for better or worse - just like commercial nuclear power) - have become ever more efficient and profitable  - and have not diminished at all wrt  the national energy profile.

                        So sure, the meagre gains by solar and wind are fine as far as they go.  However, by looking at the "big picture" it is really, really difficult to see them as anything but a a smokescreen to mask the ongoing expansion of fossil fuels.

                        For the life of me, I don't see how you cannot be alarmed at the downward trends over the past year of wind and solar and the upward trends of coal, oil, and natural gas.

                        Unless, of course, it's your job to troll progress sites to present a "balanced view"  - note that I"m not at all accusing you of this, I'm just confused how any other scenario makes any sense.

                        •  yes, I secretly joined dKos (0+ / 0-)

                          in 2003, UID 3663, so that 8 years later I could troll progress sites and argue with assholes in a dead thread.

                          fuck off.

                          Causation was, is, and ever shall be a slippery bitch, so we're best sticking with noting the facts

                          by jam on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:57:32 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, this is an all too familiar end (0+ / 0-)

                            to trying to have a fact based discussion on this site.

                            It degenerates into being told to fuck off because the other person cannot rebut the information being presented.

                            Whatever.

                          •  You're hilarious (0+ / 0-)

                            You push a series of half-truths, lies, and conspiracy theories consummating in calling me a troll and then wrap yourself in the flag of a "fact based discussion."

                            I, in fact, rebutted all of your "facts" while you continued to wander aimlessly around the argument cherry-picking and lying the entire time.

                            Whatever.

                            Causation was, is, and ever shall be a slippery bitch, so we're best sticking with noting the facts

                            by jam on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 06:08:01 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

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