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View Diary: Nurses arrested at Occupy Chicago - is caring criminal? (177 comments)

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  •  Uh... (18+ / 0-)
    If someone believes that the law requiring parks to close at 11 p.m. is unjust...

    I don't think their protest is over the parks closing at 11PM -- could be something else. Thoreau was not protesting taxes, just what they were used for, an unjust war. And yes, as you say, he expected to be arrested, but then he used that arrest, in a very public way, to call attention to the war -- exactly what the diarist and the protestors are doing.

    stay together / learn the flowers / go light - Gary Snyder

    by Mother Mags on Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 06:01:28 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  That's what civil disobedience is about (6+ / 0-)

      violating a law expecting to get arrested, and using the publicity behind the arrest.  Although usually, in civil disobedience, one violates the unjust law -- the way Rosa Parks, or those staging sit ins at segregated facilities did.  

      In this case, the Nurses were arrested for violating the law.  They were warned, and they stayed.  They may well have wanted to get arrested for that reason.  But surely by staying they had to expect to get arrested.  

      •  The law is unjust. It's also illegal right now in (8+ / 0-)

        in New York to spit on the sidewalk.  How many people get arrested for it?  It's an arrestable offense.
        Civil Disobedience is allowing yourself to be arrested, or daring the authorities to arrest you over a silly and unjust law.  Evicting nurses, legal or illegal is obviously not right or good.  I guess I would make a poor police officer, because I would refuse to do my job as ordered.  That, is also Civil Disobedience, and there was plenty of it from the cops in the past - because there are things even cops won't do.  How about the laws that allowed the Corporations to get away with murder, and de-regulation was a law that passed, is that okay?  Are they just? Should we just shake our heads and say, 'oh well', they might not have done anything illegal.
        That is why there are people are in the streets.  That is why people are being arrested.  They are being arrested legally, but unjustly.  That is the First Amendment being used at a fundamental level.  Will you stand up and say , ENOUGH?
        It's time we did.

        Come to the Dark Side, we have cookies

        by Evolutionary on Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 07:12:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Just because they don't arrest every spitter (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          erush1345, VClib, johnny wurster

          It doesn't make the law unjust.

          People aren't being arrested "unjustly".

          If it weren't okay to evict a nurse, then every protester could claim to be a nurse.

          If it weren't okay to arrest a legal observer from the patch of ground they occupied in Boston, then every protester could have claimed to have been a legal observer, and then the cops couldn't have cleared that area.

          The law doesn't work that way. It's great that the movement has medical personnel there to help people out - I applaud their efforts. But they don't get to remain in a closed park simply because they're there for a "good reason". If that were the criteria, then any homeless person could claim that they had a good reason to camp in a closed park overnight, and all the protesters could assert that they had a good reason to be allowed to stay in the park overnight after the park's closing hours.

          There is a lack of justice in our nation - that IS why the OWS protesters are protesting, and it's terrific that they're doing so. But people in parks after the park's closing hours are justifiably getting arrested.

          •  Are you actually saying (8+ / 0-)

            that there is no such thing as an unjust law?  

            Like laws that make it illegal for people who have no home to sleep in a public park?  Do you have any idea what it must be like to try to live a life in which literally anywhere you can sleep is illegal?  

            •  Ah no, that'd be your faulty strawman argument (4+ / 0-)

              I do realize that the homeless have a really rough time of it. For the last 15 years, in every community I've landed in, I've used the skills I've learned over my lifetime to be a leader in helping the homeless in my community.

              But that doesn't mean that I don't understand the reasons why camping overnight in parks is against the law.

              The right for you to exert your freedom stops when it bumps up against my nose. The right of any one person or any one group to be on public property has to be weighed against the rights of every other citizen of an area. Often, when that calculus is made, the rights of the non-protesting citizens to have a quiet neighborhood in the evening, with enough police available to help them out if they need them, rather than cops too busy making sure that the homeless and protesters camping out in closed parks are safe.

              There are plenty of unjust laws. However, reasonable limitations on protesters via the court-determined time, place and manner restrictions aren't unjust. They're fair to everyone. They wisely balance the rights of people to protest versus the rights of the non-protesters to live their lives, drive on their roads that were designed for cars, not for parades of protesters, use local parks for their intended uses most of the time with limited times when select groups can take over those areas, etc, etc.

              •  Talk about (5+ / 0-)

                cognitive dissonance.  

                From this

                I've used the skills I've learned over my lifetime to be a leader in helping the homeless in my community.

                to this

                The right for you to exert your freedom stops when it bumps up against my nose. The right of any one person or any one group to be on public property has to be weighed against the rights of every other citizen of an area. Often, when that calculus is made, the rights of the non-protesting citizens to have a quiet neighborhood in the evening, with enough police available to help them out if they need them, rather than cops too busy making sure that the homeless and protesters camping out in closed parks are safe.

                Hahahahahahaha!  Oh dear Molly, you are just too funny for your own good.  And to think that you might even believe that crap you just wrote down up there.

          •  Dolly, do you think that the recent laws passed (3+ / 0-)

            by the United States House of Representatives to limit your ability to use family planning are okay?
            Do you think that the law allowing Corporations to get a tax break for off shoring jobs is okay?
            Should I go on?

            Come to the Dark Side, we have cookies

            by Evolutionary on Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 07:42:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, you shouldn't go on with your strawmen (4+ / 0-)

              Not sure why I needed to tell you that.

              There are plenty of unjust laws.

              There is a ton of settled law, determined by all kinds of courts, up to and including the US Supreme Court, that have determined that time, place and manner restrictions on protests are just and justifiable.

              Yes, they don't give full freedom to the protesters, and that's because the protesters aren't the only group in America. The right of the protesters to impose upon the rest of the citizenry is limited. It's not absent, but it's not unlimited either.

              That's the part that way too many people here misunderstand. The Bill of Rights First Amendment's Freedom of Assembly isn't absolute or unlimited.

              No "right" is. Rights are always limited by the way in which exercising that right might impign upon another citizen's right to not be disadvantaged by your exercise of that right. You have the right to shoot someone who is threatening your life, because that person who's threatening your life doesn't have the right to do that! But you don't have the right to shoot someone you've just had a verbal spat with, since they have the right to get angry with you without you shooting them in retribution!

              And protesters have the right to protest within reasonable limitations. One of the limitations that courts have routinely allowed and said is constitutional is the right for cities to close parks at a reasonable time and disallow overnight camping in those parks. No citizen has the right to assert that they can be on any public property whenever they want to. You don't. The US Constitution didn't give you an absolute right to assemble whenever and wherever you want to assemble.

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