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View Diary: UPDATE-I'm the "bottle-thrower" Mayor Quan, your legal adviser knows it, go ahead & arrest me again. (143 comments)

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  •  Yes, I have (0+ / 0-)

    We have one here in my home town of Washington DC.  They are pretty well-organized and don't make the headlines like the Oakland folks, but they are here.

    I don't have a problem with marches, demonstrations and sit-ins when they are thought through and tied to a well-conceived long-term strategy.   A strategy based on the world as it really works, as opposed to how we would like it to work.  

    I am no cynic.  I just hate to see people trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

    "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

    by FDRDemocrat on Sat Oct 29, 2011 at 03:36:19 PM PDT

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    •  hahaha, your age is showing (5+ / 0-)

      FDR was a long time ago and his tactics no longer work. Your problem and those of the MSM is that you can't grasp what the younger people know instinctively. i.e. to change things in todays world new tactics are in order. Organizing the masses around the larger issue, the 1% vs 99%, must come before the legislative and other efforts you espouse. Right now the forces aligned against the 99% have convinced the masses of the neoliberal economic policy and the entire global economy bullshit. That's why one day protests no longer work and why small, one issue groups can't gain traction.

      The real poof if what I say is plain in the way the narrative is changing across the country as OWS tactics bear fruit. And just think how young the movement is. It's working and when it has grown and matured you'll see the things you want come to reality. Already progressive ideas are circulating among Congressional democrats, perhaps they'll be the engine to effect some chage just by doing their jobs. Unions are also getting the message as are once staid progressive and environmental groups. The OWS message is contageous and is spreading around the country.

      So old impatient guys like us (I'm 70) need to sit back and work towards understanding a new paradigm that has taken hold. It results are already becoming apparent and there's more to come.

      America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

      by cacamp on Sat Oct 29, 2011 at 06:47:45 PM PDT

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      •  The above post contains pure wisdom hard-earned (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mamamedusa, mamamorgaine, Matt Z, elwior

        from many battles. I hope the poster above you actually reads & listens to your post.

        Meteor Blades seems to do an outstanding job of community moderation despite the abject failure to be perfect.

        by catilinus on Sat Oct 29, 2011 at 07:50:46 PM PDT

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      •  So electoral politics no longer work? (0+ / 0-)

        Wherein is the proof of that?  

        Did the elections of FDR mean nothing?  I guess you can write off:

        - creation of social security
        - creation of the SEC

        And Truman meant nothing?  Let's write off:

        - desegregation of the US armed forces

        LBJ's election meant nothing?  Let's write off:

        - Medicare
        - the Civil Rights Acts

        The reality is that the electoral process has been central to the advance not only of rule of law, but also the advance of progressive achievements.  If you are 70, you witnessed many of these things.

        On the flip side, when the other side won, we got Nixon, Reagan, both Bushes, etc. - a hindering if not a step backwards.

        I keep hearing this "1 percent v. 99 percent" as if it were a fact rather than a slogan.  The reality is that the right wing is more powerful than that (witness the 2010 mid-terms).  Furthermore, to bring the middle and undecideds over you need more than an argument, you need solutions and you need a plan to move them politically.

        I realize that means the same-old, same-old to many people - politics, compromise, etc.  

        But iPhones and Twitter did not change these fundamentals  People are acting as if they invented civil disobedience and are doing things no humans ever did before.  That is not the case.  Technology is not inherently progressive in its substance or results - the Tea Party uses the same gadgets to do their thing.

        "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

        by FDRDemocrat on Sat Oct 29, 2011 at 08:07:37 PM PDT

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        •  For the record (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          alizard, Matt Z, elwior

          Executive Order 9981 by Harry Truman was probably the reason that he was elected.

          You need to know your Truman history. He gave an important portion of his electorate (black voters) something in exchange for their votes.

          Remember, the Party was far more fractured then than it is even now.

        •  old guys need time to dig it (6+ / 0-)

          all the things you mentioned are great accomplishments and I worked on several of them. The trouble now is we don't have the ear of the establishment like we did under FDR.

          But also remember that under FDR the garmet workers occupied their factories and refused to leave. The longshoremen struck the docks and the other unions threatened a general strike. This is what forced FDR to move the progressive legislation he's rightfully famous for passing.  

          The new tactics aren't there to replace good legislation or solid accomplishments by politicians. That's the mistake you and the MSM are making. No one is even trying to propose replacing the electoral process but for the moment OWS is redefining the argument from the tea party anti-everything to the pro-working class definition of the FDR days.

          If they succeed then the electoral process you so revere can move towards doing something except cut taxes and distroying the social legislation you write about and on to doing something about the upward theft of the nations wealth. So far OWS is succeeding spactacularly.

          Try to understand no one is denying what you are saying in the main. OWS is in the process of making what you want possible again because right now the GOP strangle lock won't allow those things to happen. It isn't about new things like twitter or facebook, those are mere tools like the phone was back in our day. It's about resetting the debate so progressive things can happen.

          America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

          by cacamp on Sat Oct 29, 2011 at 10:34:37 PM PDT

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          •  Well then I hope I am proved wrong (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            However your quite reasonable arguments are not the only ones being made.  Quite a few OWS supporters are using their soap box to make exactly the points I have issue with - that the Democrats and GOP are the same, elections are a ruse, etc.

            The 2012 election will be very very tight.  The GOP is well-poised to retake the White House.  It will not help to have even a small part of the potential Democratic vote demobilized by left-anarchists.

            "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

            by FDRDemocrat on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 04:15:52 PM PDT

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        •  If you think election politics work: what's diff (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          between Bush and Obama?

          Tell me what, specifically, about our country has improved, that wouldn't have under Bush?

          Tell me what, specifically has stayed the same.

          And what's gotten worse in the same way we'd've expected it to under Bush.

          This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

          by AllisonInSeattle on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 11:56:03 PM PDT

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