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View Diary: Drone warfare expands to Ethiopia (51 comments)

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  •  You're definition is flexible (0+ / 0-)

    We had no intent on hold Iraq as ours. Nor Afghanistan. Our "goal" was to force a change in the governments of both countries, not to claim any of their territory as ours. Japan invaded China, Germany invaded Poland, Russia invaded Afghanistan.

    Please give me a consistent definition of invasion. Or admit that we use drones to allow another force to do our "dirty work" for us.

    GOP 2012 -- Austerity is just around the corner!

    by ontheleftcoast on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 12:54:22 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Dirty work and invasions are two (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ontheleftcoast, VClib

      separate things.

       Invade defintions:

      to enter forcefully as an enemy; go into with hostile intent: Germany invaded Poland in 1939. 2.to enter like an enemy: Locusts invaded the fields. 3.to enter as if to take possession: to invade a neighbor's home. 4.to enter and affect injuriously or destructively, as disease: viruses that invade the bloodstream. 5.to intrude upon: to invade the privacy of a family.
      Definition of INVADE
      transitive verb
      1: to enter for conquest or plunder
      2: to encroach upon : infringe
      3a : to spread over or into as if invading : permeate b : to affect injuriously and progressively

      http://dictionary.reference.com/...

      http://www.merriam-webster.com/...

      There's a stronger argument that we've been constantly invading Germany and Japan since 1945 than there is we've invaded a single country since 2008.

      Per wikipedia:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      An invasion is a military offensive consisting of all, or large parts of the armed forces of one geopolitical entity aggressively entering territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of either conquering, liberating or re-establishing control or authority over a territory, forcing the partition of a country, altering the established government or gaining concessions from said government, or a combination thereof. An invasion can be the cause of a war, be a part of a larger strategy to end a war, or it can constitute an entire war in itself. Due to the large scale of the operations associated with invasions, they are usually strategic in planning and execution.
      The term invasion usually denotes a strategic endeavor of substantial magnitude; because the goals of an invasion are usually large-scale and long-term, a sizeable force is needed to hold territory, and protect the interests of the invading entity. Smaller-scale, tactical cross-border actions, such as skirmishes, sorties, raids, infiltrations or guerrilla warfare, are not generally considered invasions. A military endeavor to take back territory that is tenuously held by an initial invader during the course of war is instead generally called a counter-offensive.

      "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

      by Geekesque on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:07:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But what CP and I are claiming is that definition (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cartoon Peril, phonegery

        is outdated. Look at the first paragraph in the definition from wikipedia

        An invasion is a military offensive consisting of all, or large parts of the armed forces of one geopolitical entity aggressively entering territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of either conquering, liberating or re-establishing control or authority over a territory, forcing the partition of a country, altering the established government or gaining concessions from said government, or a combination thereof.

        Clearly we used a "large part of the armed forces" in Afghanistan and Iraq. There is no question of that. But in Libya we achieved those exact same results without having to use our own troops to do it. Invasion by proxy. We're changing the definition of war in the 21st century.

        GOP 2012 -- Austerity is just around the corner!

        by ontheleftcoast on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:13:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Then the term loses all meaning. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          VClib

          It just means "the US doing stuff people on the left generally don't like" under those circumstances.

          Sorry, but words have objective meanings.   And drone flights fall squarely outside of the definition of invasion.

          "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

          by Geekesque on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:19:09 PM PDT

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          •  Which is the goal of PNAC (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vacantlook, snoopydawg, phonegery

            To put us in a constant state of "luke warm" engagements. And endless excuses to keep the machines of war well lubricated with money. And it appears, for the most part, they're succeeding with that strategy.

            GOP 2012 -- Austerity is just around the corner!

            by ontheleftcoast on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:23:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Wrong, drone overflights can easily fall within (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cartoon Peril

            the definitions you posted:

            to enter forcefully as an enemy; go into with hostile intent: Germany invaded Poland in 1939. 2.to enter like an enemy: Locusts invaded the fields. 3.to enter as if to take possession: to invade a neighbor's home. 4.to enter and affect injuriously or destructively, as disease: viruses that invade the bloodstream. 5.to intrude upon: to invade the privacy of a family.

             all but one of those, and

            Definition of INVADE
            transitive verb
            1: to enter for conquest or plunder
            2: to encroach upon : infringe
            3a : to spread over or into as if invading : permeate b : to affect injuriously and progressively

            1, 2 and 3b there.

            The devil is in the details.

            That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

            by enhydra lutris on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 02:15:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If there is no physical presence on the (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              VClib

              ground inside the territory, there has been no entry.

              Again, not every use of military force you do not like is an 'invasion.'

              "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

              by Geekesque on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 03:34:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  None of the definitions that you posted so state. (0+ / 0-)

                Though the term "violation" of xxxx's airspace is more common, "invasion" of xxx's airspace is also used, and quite legitimately.

                The Convention on International Civil Aviation (1944) specifically excluded military aircraft.

                That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                by enhydra lutris on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 04:26:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  KAL007 is the flight you mental blocked 1983 (0+ / 0-)

                  That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                  by enhydra lutris on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 04:51:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So the U2 that was shot (0+ / 0-)

                    down over the Soviet Union was actually an invasion?

                    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

                    by Geekesque on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 05:50:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Of their airspace, yesand casus bellum (0+ / 0-)

                      should they have wished to make it so. When are you going to produce the definitions that require boots on the ground? Specifically, when are you going to produce the text citations that state that the definitions you already claimed to rely upon require boots on the ground?

                      That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                      by enhydra lutris on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 09:13:44 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Not that new, at Mers el-Kebir, 7/3/40, British (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ontheleftcoast, phonegery

          fleet destroyed a number of French ships and killed 1,297 French sailors, with air raids and bombardment alone.  The reason was that the British were afraid the Germans would come into the control of the French fleet.  No matter what one thinks of the military need for the attack, there can be no question that this was an act of war.

          800px-Mogador_03-07-1940_jpg
          (source)

          You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

          by Cartoon Peril on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 01:25:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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