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View Diary: DHS and OWS: the leftwing version of Black Helicopters? (118 comments)

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  •  Can credit agencies arrest you now? (0+ / 0-)

    They probably will be able to soon. If your point is there's no privacy, I think we all know that.

    I find it amazing that people don't assume that multiple LE actions on the same day with similar MOs weren't coordinated, whether by DHS or some other agency.  That seems very naive.  I personally don't think whether or not they were coordinated is that big a deal.  I assume they were.  JTFs have been SOP for decades.  Local LE has military-grade crowd handling equipment anyway.  Whether or not the feds or other jurisdictions pile on doesn't matter one way or the other to the outcome.

    What really bothers me why no one has dared to follow up with the tularemia event in 2005, where 250,000 peaceful people were exposed to a live bio-weaponized bacterium.  A number of people got sick - the symptoms mimic pneumonia so it's possible quite a few did.  There was virtually no public health follow up and the whole thing died in a hurry.  This is heinous and deserves investigation.

    Which side are you on?

    by wiseacre on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 06:44:58 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  There are protests every day (0+ / 0-)

      in dozens of cities.  So, it would be amazing that on certain days there wouldn't be similar law enforcement actions in a few cities.

      Why would they pick Denver and Oakland but not NYC and Boston?

      Also, the tularemia event was never believed to be a weaponized pathogen, unless you have something proving otherwise.

      "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

      by Geekesque on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 06:55:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You might click on the tularemia link I provided (0+ / 0-)

        below before making that assertion.  So you didn't read before attacking.  Typical.

        Which side are you on?

        by wiseacre on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 07:12:03 PM PDT

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        •  You did not post a link. (0+ / 0-)

          In your words, typical.

          Given this latest episode of fail from you, I grant you a "pity last word."

          Go for it.

          "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

          by Geekesque on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 07:28:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I certainly did - are you blind as well as rude? (0+ / 0-)

            Here it is again, cut and pasted from my post below.  

            I deserve an apology, but I won't hold my breath.

            In fact, it's utterly ridiculous to think that protesters could ever be used as unwitting guinea pigs like during the anti-Iraq War demonstration on the Mall in 2005 that saw aerosolized but weakened tularemia spread over a six square mile area. It had to have been dispersed from the air because it was such a wide area, and the air space over the Mall in DC is strictly controlled.  Based on the virus and its vectors, a process of elimination easily disproves the government's excuse that it was people "kicking up dirt" on the Mall.  Besides the fact it's never happened before or since
            .

            Which side are you on?

            by wiseacre on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 07:44:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  For some reason, that post didn't turn (0+ / 0-)

              up when I ran a search for tularemia.

              Apologies for the misunderstanding.  Should have read further upthread.

              Regardless, even that article doesn't have anything beyond speculation that it was weaponized or even that anyone got sick as a result.

              "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

              by Geekesque on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 08:04:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  There were reports of sickness (0+ / 0-)

                And an investigation was never done.  That's the point.  There is enough wrong that an investigation should be done.

                That an independent laboratory did not publicly confirm the bacteria was weaponized does not mean there is no evidence that it was weaponized.  One may reasonably infer from the strain and the dispersal that it was.  Natural tularemia does not behave the way this did.  Tularemia that theoretically could be "kicked up in the dirt", even if such a mechanism were plausible over such a wide area, is not found in that part of the country.  

                The article cited credible experts whose opinions were that it was a bio-weapon.  Expert opinion is all you would get in court.

                But believe whatever you want.  You obviously do anyway.

                Which side are you on?

                by wiseacre on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 08:47:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  whoa there on three counts. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wiseacre, Ahianne

      One, they can't arrest you but they can make you unemployed and homeless.  IMHO that's worse because it leaves you fighting a marshmallow: an attacker that you can't face down in court, can't cross-examine, can't effectively get justice against.

      The fear of unemployment and homelessness does far more to control peoples' behavior and stifle dissent, than the fear of getting arrested and going to court.  

      Two, who says there's no more privacy?  That's a defeatist meme and it's frankly bullshit.   You have as much privacy as you are willing to take and protect.  

      Start here: http://www.eff.org    

      Three, whether or not the LE actions are coordinated in any way is irrelevant.  If our movement sticks to a strong nonviolence ethic and practices accordingly, we will succeed.  And if we keep our tactics flexible rather than rigid, we will succeed.  

      Four, as for tularemia, go here: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Tularemia

      "In 2005, small amounts of F. tularensis were detected in the Mall area of Washington, DC the morning after an antiwar demonstration on September 24, 2005. Biohazard sensors were triggered at six locations surrounding the Mall. While thousands of people were potentially exposed, no infections were reported. The detected bacteria likely originated from a natural source, not from a bioterror attempt.[25]"  

      Emphasis added.  If this had been an official action, those sensors would have been turned off during the event, or their results would have been classified, in order to keep the thing under wraps.  

      Sounds to me like a naturally occurring event, and if you want to make an extraordinary claim otherwise, you need to provide the extraordinary evidence, else it's CT.  

      "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

      by G2geek on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 08:31:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've actually looked into it carefully (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wu ming

        First, I agree, as you will see in my other comments, that whether LE coordinated is irrelevant.  I have faith that a nonviolent protest will prevail.  And that only a nonviolent protest will prevail.

        As for the privacy thing, you're right, I've given up.  Good for you for keeping fighting.  I'm tired of it and I'm not that interesting, anyway.  So hack away people, I don't buy your crap and I don't use credit.  I don't have any money, any shady connections, or any vices other than Dr. Pepper.  So enjoy digging around in my genealogy files and following me on GPS to the grocery store and the post office.  Whatever.

        Now to the bothersome point.  The kind of tularemia that would be "kicked up in the dirt" is not found in that part of the country, even assuming it could be kicked up from the mall to drift over a six mile wide area.  It hasn't happened before or since, either.

        I posted a link in another comment that goes into it in more detail.  The experts cited seem credible based on their credentials; they think it was a terroristic event that was hushed up.

        I would agree with their assessment, except that airspace over DC was strictly controlled at the time, and an airborne dispersal would have been very difficult for someone without LE or military connections.

        As for "they would have turned off the sensors".  Yes, but I'm sure you've heard of  the term SNAFU and know its genesis.

        Bottom line - a likely bioweapon was detected in DC during an antiwar protest in 2005, and it was never fully investigated.  If it had been a terroristic attack, the Bush admin would have played it up and used it as an excuse to ratchet up national security spending, expand powers, etc.  They didn't - it was quashed.  The timing, the nature of the material, the access to air space, and the actions of the authorities are what I based my conclusions on.  

        I think carefully about what I post.  If it's a controversial topic I've done my homework on it before posting, even if I don't put everything I know down in one post.  But why don't you gather all the evidence you can? Be my guest and go to the CDC and other sites as I've done, read the literature, map out the sensors (I can't remember how I found them, it's been a few years) and see what you think.

        If the govt hadn't done this kind of thing before, and had the Bushies not been so scary, I still might have had doubts.  But I don't.  Whether it was official policy or just some cowboy contractor looking to teach hippies a lesson during a war, or even sabotage, it looks to me like an intentional act, and it should be investigated further to determine what happened and why.  I won't say it's impossible that it's innocent, but from here, given all the available information I've been able to find on it, it doesn't look innocent.  And if that makes me a conspiracy theorist, so be it.

        Which side are you on?

        by wiseacre on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 09:20:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  per the Wikipedia article.... (0+ / 0-)

          .... there was another outbreak on Martha's Vineyard stirred up from the grass.  

          I'm not a public health expert nor are you.  If I had to attribute it to a bad-actor, it would be a private party of some kind, a rogue right-wing nutjob.  Keep in mind that the first post-WW2 bioattack in the USA was a salmonella outbreak spread by a religious cult in the Pacific Northwest.

          And the anthrax thing also remains basically unsolved.  That one was truly an embarrassing low-point for law enforcement, though they have gotten much better since that time.  

          The incentive for government to keep quiet about these things is obvious:  bioweapons are WMD, as with atomic bombs, and admitting there has been a successful attack will have serious repercussions in the culture and the economy.  But unlike an atomic bomb, bioweapons can be kept hushed up.  So it goes.

          "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 10:25:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes the Martha's Vineyard was aerosol (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            G2geek

            from landscapers cutting grass.  They weren't turning over the soil. And, if the Mall grounds were infested with tularemia, wouldn't it have to have been dug up, sterilized and re-sodded?  Or at least treated somehow? I don't see where that was done.  Assuming it wasn't, isn't it reasonable to conclude the authorities weren't concerned about making the Mall safe because they knew it wasn't the grass?

            Those with access to the air in that six mile area had to have a security clearance or permission.

            I did more than look at wikipedia.  I looked at the CDC and the public health service reports.  I'm not a public health expert, but  I'm a capable person with good analytical abilities, and I have sufficient biology knowledge from college to be able to read these reports and draw sound conclusions. I looked at the occurrence of the disease and its vectors.  I don't just say things and make irresponsible claims with no basis.  

            Most tularemia is insect borne.  The aerosolized version mostly found on Martha's Vineyard comes from lawn mowing. The protesters weren't cutting grass with high speed machinery.  It is mostly a rural disease.  The CDCsays

            Outbreaks of tularemia in the United States have been associated with muskrat handling (3), tick bites (4,5), deerfly bites (6), and lawn mowing or cutting brush (7). Sporadic cases in the United States have been associated with contaminated drinking water (8) and various laboratory exposures (9). Outbreaks of pneumonic tularemia, particularly in low-incidence areas, should prompt consideration of bioterrorism (10).

            I've also seen a lot of stuff happen, so I'm not as trusting as a lot of people here.  No, I don't like thinking this way.  I wish I didn't know about the Church Committee and all the stuff that's happened over my lifetime.  But I can't wish it away just because I want my country to be an honorable one that lives up to its professed ideals.

            I know you are LE oriented.  I have to assume there are some LE out there who are disgusted that those in power spit on our laws.  Our laws made this country.  They need to be enforced against the elite as well as the powerless.  It would make LE's heads spin how much public support they would get if they would just enforce the damn laws.  The human soul cries out for justice - it always has.

            Which side are you on?

            by wiseacre on Sun Oct 30, 2011 at 11:27:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  i'm with you on the principles.... (0+ / 0-)

              ... and there are certainly suggestive data out there.

              Why didn't the Bush regime investigate that for bioterrorism?

              Why did Bush ignore the CIA briefers who were pulling the red fire alarm about Al Qaeda in July and August 2001?

              How did the anthrax bomber escape getting caught?

              And let's go all the way back to early 2001: what about that US intel aircraft that got shot out of the air by China and its pilots held for a period of time (while the Chinese gov had a free run with all the classified stuff on the aircraft that the crew were unable to destroy before they came down)...?

              How'bout cyberattacks on .gov and .mil sites, that were rampant during the Bush years (I know a few things about those that weren't generally public information)?   Talk about letting our guard down!

              Then there's Tora Bora itself, basically letting Bin Laden escape.  

              The Bush years were an all-time low point in American history, the most incompetent administration in living memory and beyond.  

              If we went over the entire list right now of things they just plain screwed up royally, it would remind us of how good we have it with an administration that, admittedly hasn't been fighting the way many of us wish they would, but none the less is at least competent to run the government.  

              And here's another thing: Cheney for all his bluster, has a life history that has been utterly dominated by his own terror at his own mortality.   The man is terrified of his own death.  And with his medical history of multiple heart attacks starting at a very early age, it make sense that he would be.

              The torture, the surveillance, and all the rest of it, sprang from Cheney's utter terror of death, carefully camouflaged with his characteristic snarl.  When he was off to his "undisclosed locations," it would not surprise me if he was having panic attacks and taking medication.  

              I don't think we're ever likely to get answers about the anthrax attacks, the tularemia, or even the reason why certain influential Saudis were allowed to fly out of the US while our national airspace was closed in the days after 9/11, even as FBI agents scrambled to try to interview (read "question") them before they could escape.  

              I don't think we're ever likely to get answers about the odd behavior of certain airline stocks in the market in the days before 9/11, even though the accounts could easily enough be traced and the relevant people questioned as to whether they had any hint that something big and bad was about to occur.  That's not trutherism, that's just a great big honking anomaly that has no good explanation.  

              And when Obama took office we were teetering at the edge of a total economic collapse that must have sent "shock and awe" through the entire administration, making it vulnerable to having Goldman Sachs alumni installed throughout its economic policy apparatus.  

              But now, finally, we have a movement.  
              It's going to become what we make of it.  
              This is finally OUR moment, and this is truly OUR time.  

              "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

              by G2geek on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 12:13:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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