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View Diary: Women and the Occupation - 2/3'rds of the working hours, 10% of the income (181 comments)

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  •  Like I said... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    atheistben, cryonaut

    ...the only thing that matters to me is data. If you can show me that women with comparable experience in comparable jobs with comparable schedules etc are systematically underpaid, we can talk. It certainly doesn't help that diaries like this put "household labor" on the same category as actual job labor.

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 09:22:20 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Note the word "actual" (7+ / 0-)

      in this "sparkling gem" of a quote :)

      It certainly doesn't help that diaries like this put "household labor" on the same category as actual job labor.

      It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

      by karmsy on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 11:05:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They aren't remotely the same thing (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        atheistben

        The fact that you think they are doesn't change anything. "Work" is something that someone is willing to pay you for.

        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

        by Sparhawk on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 11:27:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  oh yes they are (5+ / 0-)

          I pay for house cleaning.  Lots of people pay for day care or nannies.  Your point?

          •  Oinkers ahoy (7+ / 0-)

            There's a reason we used to call men with those attitudes "male chauvinist pigs". They started from the piggy notion that only men were real people and only the work that men did was real work - and it got worse from there, much much worse.

            Men like that miss the days when a wife was a legally owned slave.

            If it's
            Not your body
            Then it's
            Not your choice
            AND it's
            None of your damn business!

            by TheOtherMaven on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 12:59:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Re (0+ / 0-)

              This is completely a gender-neutral statement, but "work" performed keeping your house up to date is not at all the same as "work" getting a paycheck, whatever the gender of the people involved. The housework is completely enabled by the paycheck work. The reverse is not true.

              Many, many houses get along fine with limited housework and two paycheck earners. None get along fine with zero paycheck earners.

              That's the difference. 100 out of 100 times, I would trade a housework performing partner for one who earns a paycheck. The only time this might not be true is if the paycheck is exceedingly low, which tells you something about the relative economic value of housework (not very valuable).

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 02:45:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hoo boy, do you pay for a cleaning service, (4+ / 0-)

                maintenance and repairs, and so forth, or would you be content to live in a pigsty as long as you had two paychecks?

                Just because the standards and practices of this country are totally out of whack is NO excuse for accepting them as "normal" or "the way things are and MUST be".

                And the reason housework is devalued, despised, and unpaid is that it has traditionally been "women's work", and women have traditionally been equated with slaves. Sometimes the laws of the culture made no bones about it, sometimes they veiled their cruelty in hypocritical cant. But the end result is the same: the most necessary work in the world, that makes all other forms of work possible, is extorted without recompense from women under penalties of guilt and shame (at best) or brutality up to and including murder (at worst).

                Put THAT in your glibertarian pipe and smoke it. Oink oink.

                If it's
                Not your body
                Then it's
                Not your choice
                AND it's
                None of your damn business!

                by TheOtherMaven on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 07:26:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I do hire a cleaning service (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  soros

                  They cost around $100 a month. That's how much a cleaning service is worth. It's not because it's 'woman's work' or any such thing, it's because it's really easy to do and there are a plethora of people capable of doing so. Even minimum wage is worth around $1300/mo.

                  Housework is devalued because it is not valuable. Tons of people know how to do it, most of it has been replaced by automation these days, and it is trivial to find services to do it for low cost. The only 'service' that cannot be done cheaply is child care, but even moderate earning power by both partners makes that an attractive option also.

                  The fact of the matter is that many educated guys (including myself) have zero interest in women who are going to spend their days doing a lot of housework, let alone force them to do so. What I want is intelligence and earning power. Your ideas that women are being oppressed do not apply to me, at least. I hope to meet a smart woman someday who earns as much or more than I do.

                  (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                  Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                  by Sparhawk on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 07:42:28 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Warped values do not attract smart capable women (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ellinorianne, karmsy

                    as I think you are going to find out.

                    If it's
                    Not your body
                    Then it's
                    Not your choice
                    AND it's
                    None of your damn business!

                    by TheOtherMaven on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 08:06:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Lol (0+ / 0-)

                      Hilarious, really. As you think I'll find out? I do just fine, you know, with women with actual job skills.

                      I don't do well with women who think housework is valuable (or whose only skill is housework), I generally avoid those women. I'm sure they are nice and all, but as a mate?

                      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                      by Sparhawk on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 09:05:01 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Just beware of the Alice Rosenblums (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Ellinorianne

                        And you know what type I mean, and you know they're out there.

                        You wouldn't want to find yourself stuck with one of them, no matter how smart, capable, pro-career and anti-housework she presented herself as being.

                        Be careful what you ask for. Be really, really careful.

                        If it's
                        Not your body
                        Then it's
                        Not your choice
                        AND it's
                        None of your damn business!

                        by TheOtherMaven on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 09:32:20 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Good luck with that . . . (6+ / 0-)

                    I've never stayed at home, I'm a single mom, and I have a Phd.  I don't value house work, per se, I hate doing it.  But I do it, among many other things in my daily life.  It is fucking hard tedious work that is never fucking done.  I've cleaned rooms, waited tables, made pizza, worked in group homes, run community centers, and gone to grad school.  And taking care of a house and kids and PREGNANCY are motherfuckin hard thankless jobs.  

                    Having said that, you are so ignorant, you are never going to find a woman with earning power and a brain.  The reason is, you're a dumb shit.  Why don't you go become some MRA nut job and argue that creationism is equivalent to evolution.  And for fucks' sake, take a class in sociology.  I just vomited in my mouth imagining that you are actually apart of this progressive community.  I just remember why I never diary on this cite or post in the comments.  It might as well be freaking freeperville with ass hats like you.

                    -7.3,-7.5 If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

                    by Nebraska Outsider on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 10:07:13 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  what do you want, a cookie? (0+ / 0-)

                    Well, duh.  Women capable of earning a big paycheck have no more interest in doing housework than men!  Stop the presses!  

                    Who do you think ends up doing this "minimum-wage" work in households that cannot afford $100/month (which in my experience is way too low of an estimate, but let's just stick with it)?  In general, because of societal pressures, it's women.  

                    Also, even if it's minimum wage because anyone can do it, it's still paid work if you hire it done, and unpaid work when it's done by someone in the household.  All of these estimates include unpaid men's work as well.  To take a stereotypical "man job" -- if a homeowner paints his own house rather than hiring painters, that gets counted right alongside his wife baking bread from scratch to save a few bucks.

                    Part of your problem is that it sounds like you've never made little enough for your time to be worth less than your money.  There are lots of things you can do in household tasks to save money.  Make your own laundry soap.  Clip coupons.  Comparison shop.  Careful meal planning and more labor-intensive cooking.  None of these are generally fun, and all of them time-consuming.  If you can't afford to pay for convenience, you pay in time.  And, disproportionally, it's women who pay that cost.

            •  ayup (0+ / 0-)

              Thank you for taking up this argument where I wandered off, even if it doesn't seem to have made much of an impact.  :)

      •  There's truth in that quote (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sparhawk

        Household work and employment really are different things. I'm not trying to diminish the importance of doing household tasks, but the grouping here sucks.

        You simply cannot include household labor in the same category as employment, say women do far more household labor for which they aren't paid, and then conclude that women are underpaid globally. It doesn't work that way. Women doing household labor in their own houses aren't going to get paid. Who would pay them? The husbands? Oh wait, they kinda do in the form of food and shelter and gifts that undoubtedly aren't in the "income" calculation. So the calculation is flawed.

        The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

        by atheistben on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 03:31:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The 1% (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          karmsy

          though rarely have to clean their own homes, it's a privilege to not have to stoop so low.  They pay others to do it.

          It is work, it is work that allows people to work outside of the home and the industrial revolution allowed women to spend a lot less time clean and keeping house and what is what allowed them to work outside of the home.

          It's so much more complicated.  By doing this work in does contribute to the economy because it keeps people able to go to their work outside of the home and contribute to the economy in other ways!

          •  Like I said (0+ / 0-)

            At what low salary level would a family mutually be willing to have one partner stop working to tend the home?

            Is having one spouse tend the home worth $50,000? $40,000? $30,000?

            The answer is pretty damn low, especially if the other partner isn't a huge earner either. The economic value of housework isn't zero, but it isn't very high.

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 07:11:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And there's also the issue that employment (0+ / 0-)

              involves a contract between two entities; whereas, housework doesn't have that at all. And you can't get fired at housework in your own home. It's really not the same. It's not meaningless, but it's not the same, and shouldn't be treated as such.

              The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

              by atheistben on Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 01:19:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  That is not true, imo. I feel that you are (4+ / 0-)

      ignoring all kinds of facts just so you can keep your pov intact. Well go for it. But having lived it, I can't help but think you are looking at some other world besides mine.

      Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society. - Mark Twain

      by glitterscale on Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 11:07:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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