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View Diary: New poll: The more Americans hear about Occupy Wall Street, the more they agree with it (93 comments)

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  •  Plan peaceful end to Occupy or it ends in violence (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike

    and becomes a political failure for the left and Democrats.

    As we saw last night there is always the potential for violence against people and property.  So the longer Occupy goes on, the more likely this becomes.

    People doing the protests also get tired of passive occupying and develop a taste for more excitement, especially when there is no control on a few people making very bad decisions that will reflect badly on the whole of Occupy.  Individual policemen and police commanders have shown their poor decision making capabilities.  But when violence breaks out the political middle and right will place the blame on the left.

    Planning a peaceful end before Thanksgiving would allow Occupy to be known as very successful peaceful protest with a message to impact our politics that did impact the politics to the advantage of the left and Democrats.

    However, without the peaceful end, it ends in violence with its messages rejected, and seen as a failure by all but the delusional left, and Democrats getting strongly rejected in Nov 2012.

    The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

    by nextstep on Thu Nov 03, 2011 at 09:04:37 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Bad Logic (4+ / 0-)

      The longer it goes on, the better and more organized the Occupy movement becomes at stopping the violence.

      Bad logic is bad.

      •  Time will tell. (0+ / 0-)

        You are relying more on wishful thinking than logic.

        The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

        by nextstep on Thu Nov 03, 2011 at 09:45:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, I'm relying on reality (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Laconic Lib

          http://www.periscopepost.com/...

          Yesterday afternoon, it emerged that a “handful of anarchists” as they were labelled by Gawker, had attacked the Oakland Whole Foods grocery store after “false rumours” spread that managers were threatening employees with “termination” if they attended the strike. They weren’t, according to Whole Foods’ twitter account, and fellow demonstrators stopped the attacking anarchists from doing more damage than breaking a window, scaring the 75 shoppers inside and spray-painting “strike” across the front of the building, according to The Oakland Tribune.
          •  Restraining violent protesters does not get far (0+ / 0-)

            in the news cycle.  But protestors "trashed" a supermarket scaring workers and customers will be the story the public remembers.

            The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

            by nextstep on Thu Nov 03, 2011 at 10:29:47 AM PDT

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            •  Letting MSM control actions is bad (0+ / 0-)

              If the Occupy movement had based their actions on what the MSM would or wouldn't say, it never would have started at all.

              To put it simply, I think your conclusion is fundamentally flawed.

              •  What the MSM reports is the only reality (0+ / 0-)

                voters know and base their voting decisions on it.

                What the MSN report is the reality that matters.

                The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                by nextstep on Thu Nov 03, 2011 at 04:53:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Riiiight. After all, it only took four months for (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      barleystraw

      the civil rights movement, anti-Vietnam war movement and women's movement to yield social  and political change.  We protested for a mere four months and history was made.  We suddenly got the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, the Equal Employment Opportunity Act, the end of the Vietnam war, the end of the draft...hell, we even passed the ERA...after only four months of protests.  Oh, and nobody died, no one was brutally beaten and no one was assassinated.  Four months and it was all good.

      "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

      by Involuntary Exile on Thu Nov 03, 2011 at 09:37:57 AM PDT

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      •  Those other movements had a series of protests (0+ / 0-)

        and did not occupy cities that created volatile situations for extended times.  

        The impact of what protesters do is not limited to the impacts they intend.  Republicans running for office love these protests, as they expect they will benefit just as they did in 1968, 1970 and 1972.

        With these long term protests, over time occupied cities fear their businesses and jobs and tax base leave for the suburbs and businesses that might have moved to the city don't.  Shoppers that might have paid sales taxes don't shop in the city.  And while the tax revenues go down, the cities spend more for police, police supplies and police equipment.

        As cities need to have balanced budgets, we should expect pressure for cuts to teachers, social services, healthcare, etc. unless the protest quickly end.  As the cities do not want to make those cuts they will decide to "Put their foot down" and take efforts to evict protestors which are extremely likely to be shown on the news as violent protest.

        Consider Oakland, a financially troubled city with high unemployment.  If any employers were thinking of leaving Oakland, the protests made the decision for them - leave.  If an employer was considering expanding into Oakland, those considerations have ended.  As a result of these extended protests, in the months to come, unemployment will rise in Oakland, government employees will be laid off and services for the poor will be cut.

        I support the objectives of Occupy, but I oppose self-destructive tactics to the cause that hurt lower income and middle class people.  

        Look beyond the intent of protest when choosing tactics and understand their full impact

        The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

        by nextstep on Thu Nov 03, 2011 at 10:24:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Concern trolling. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          barleystraw, akincer

          That's what it sounds like to me.

          I support the objectives of Occupy, but I oppose self-destructive tactics to the cause that hurt lower income and middle class people.

          Oh really?  Just what tactics are being used that hurt lower income and middle class people?

          It took years of massive demonstrations and even violence before the tides turned in the 1960s.  I was there, so I have firsthand knowledge.  Perhaps you may have been there, too, but not on our side.  Maybe you opposed the demonstrations then, too.  If we'd listened to the people that told us to stop, it was too disruptive of society, too dangerous, too violent, too destructive, do you think we'd have ever seen the Civil Rights Act or the end of the Vietnam war?

          It took years, massive civil unrest, riots, people willing to go to jail and people dying.  That's the history of all social movements.  I don't expect this one to be any different because the agent provocateurs are already in the midst of Occupy groups fomenting trouble.   But if OWS sticks to their non-violent creed they'll be able to continue to push back through the use of video and still images spread around the globe.  This time, thanks to the internet, truth will out.

          If Democrats lose in 2012, they will have no one to blame but themselves.  They can stand with the 99%, protect Social Security, Medicare and the rest of our social safety net, or they can go down in flames.  Their fate is in their own hands, especially as long as OWS doesn't jump on the party bandwagon, which it doesn't look likely to do.

          That's where things went wrong in 1968 and 1972.  The movements attached themselves to the Democratic party, which was bad for the movements and bad for Democrats.  Democrats got blamed for civil unrest, meanwhile the movements got co-opted through their attempts to gain political power. It doesn't look like that's going to happen this time.  Hurray for small "a" anarchy!

          "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

          by Involuntary Exile on Thu Nov 03, 2011 at 11:50:23 AM PDT

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    •  A year, minimum (0+ / 0-)

      I can't immagine any scenario where the occupations end in less than a year.  Even that scenario is highly optimistic, with Obama winning reelection (I know, stick with me...), Democrats maintaining the Senate and claiming the House.  And then break the filibuster and pass real laws that actually work to fix the problems, like transaction taxes, 50% millionaire tax, etc.

      Given that none of the above will actually happen...  this will probably continue for a very long time.

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