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View Diary: Unnecessary Side Tracks to Progressive Discussions (27 comments)

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  •  IMO (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ravagerofworlds2

    One of the core reasons that progressive/liberal causes don't get more traction is summed up right here:

    In sum- do not make the mistake of alienating religious persons.

    It's all well and good to hold no religious belief.  It's all well and good to hold anti-religious belief.  However, if you want somehow to build coalition with the majority for political ends YOU desire as atheists? Then you learn how to talk to people with respect without dissing their religion, and especially without dissing the fact that they HAVE religion as an important part of their lives.

    Hiding behind the internet for one's political speech doesn't reduce the duty to do that.

    But who am I kidding with this comment? Last time this subject came up we got a whole lot of "Who? Me? Where?" denial and whinging about the inability to get elected to public office, as if that's the same thing as an attack on a person's intelligence and sanity.  There was almost no acknowledgement of what is not even hiding in plain sight in too many diaries and comment threads here at DailyKOS.

    Evangelical atheism.  Your name for it fits.

    Thanks for the diary and your willing to admit what you see.  Hope you don't get drowned in all the pie that may well be coming your way for writing it from those who simply refuse to.

    If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

    by shanikka on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:10:30 AM PST

    •  I expect this thread (0+ / 0-)

      will die by pie or by ignoring the subject. It has no flashy title, nothing to pull people in to it. Either way, I've said my piece on the subject.

      This is well said;

      It's all well and good to hold no religious belief.  It's all well and good to hold anti-religious belief.  However, if you want somehow to build coalition with the majority for political ends YOU desire as atheists? Then you learn how to talk to people with respect without dissing their religion, and especially without dissing the fact that they HAVE religion as an important part of their lives.

      and I wished I had phrased a paragraph for this post in just such a way.

      Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

      by ravagerofworlds2 on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:24:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Examine your own beliefs (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        protoplasmoid

        and those who you consider compatriots. The number of Christians who demand agreement with and support for their principles, beliefs, and practices far outnumbers atheists who are willing to speak up for themselves.

        There are very few places it is safe to be an atheist and speak your mind. You think there are still too many. I get that.

        •  What you don't understand... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ravagerofworlds2

          ...is that there are Christians (like you, in the minority) who speak against these demanding agreement.

          Ravager is trying to explain that... he/she is not ascribing to all of the things you discuss above.  He/she is not demanding that you or anyone else convert.  He/she is not arguing with your choice to be an atheist or hold any other belief system.

          Ravager is saying that he/she is tired of angry and unnecessary rhetoric anytime he/she says "I am a Christian."

          The moral here is not to paint anyone with a broad brush - not atheists, not Christians.

          The plea is to be able to discuss things that we agree upon - progressive ideals and not attack people because of their backgrounds.

          I certainly hope that you are not feeling attacked here - that does not seem to be the point of the post.  From my perspective however, you seem to be on the attacking end.  

          I base this on your words, not on your background.  You are absolutely right that a majority of Christians want to deny you speech.  The issue here is time, place and method.  

          Please, feel free to tell us about being an atheist and why you've chosen that path (hell, my mother nearly disowned me for dating an atheist).  But, don't throw accusations at anyone for professing to be a Christian.

          •  broad brushes (0+ / 0-)
            The moral here is not to paint anyone with a broad brush - not atheists, not Christians.

            IMO this article does paint atheists with a broad brush.

            •  You must have skipped this part (0+ / 0-)
              My concern is that many threads and comments seem intentionally tilled as fertile ground for a pie fight between Atheists and Believers : / This behavior is not a "both sides are doing it" sort of canard. One side, just like the Republicans being obstructive, are doing it. Am I saying that all Atheists are like this? Of course not! Just like not all Christians think like the Westboro Baptist Church. But from my experience, which is anecdotal, there seems to be a permissiveness on this website about ignoring attacks on religious persons.

              Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

              by ravagerofworlds2 on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 02:56:03 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You contradict yourself (0+ / 0-)

                How nice of you to make an allowance for rare exceptions, after you've compared atheists to Republican obstructionists.

                I disagree that it's a problem on one side. I've repeatedly been stereotyped as rude, non-spiritual, and morally ungrounded in the name of coalition-building.

                But we're already in your coalitions. In many cases, we're in your congregations and worship services as well.  

                •  you don't get it do you? (0+ / 0-)

                  You can stop with the scarecrow fallacy as well. It's as despicable as the ad hominems so prevalent by the zealous.

                  This is how I usually see these things play out on Dkos.

                  A ) Some thread showcases how republicans are screwing America over.
                  B) Somewhere in the general outcry, a poster will show how hypocritical it is for the GOP to advocate such a monstrous policy, because it goes against the tenets of Christianity (and usually other belief systems)- this is relevant because the GOP tends to wear Christianity the same way they wear the flag.
                  C) Some atheist(s) start using this as an excuse to ridicule the belief system and all people in the belief system. This results in the original discussion being sidetracked.

                  So it's your anecdotal claims vs. mine. I however, have never seen a self professed atheist who wasn't already being snide, rude and condescending get attacked. It's simply not my experience.

                  This post was to help other people, who may not be aware that they do not have carte blanche to attack a specific group based on self-identification.

                  Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

                  by ravagerofworlds2 on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 03:24:16 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Look... (0+ / 0-)

                    Of course, blanket attacks on religion are wrong. But why do you think that blanket attacks on atheists are right?

                    I'm an atheist. I'm also a religious humanist, and participant in inter/transfaith communities. I see preemptive and blanket attacks on my beliefs, my spirituality, my relationships, an my community all the time. Maybe we should be talking with each other and building bridges rather than having pie fights.

                    •  becuase... (0+ / 0-)

                      ....this is not a blanket attack on atheists.

                      that was your scarecrow, and I certainly do not agree to its posit for this post.

                      Your last sentence, is more in line, with the original thread.

                      Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

                      by ravagerofworlds2 on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 05:11:32 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Pardon (0+ / 0-)

                        But if you don't mean that it's a general attack on atheists, what do you mean when you say that it's a systemic problem exclusive to only one side?

                        •  because I notice (0+ / 0-)

                          the bad behavior stemming from one self identified group attacking another self identified group. I have also had private contact with other believing Dkos users who report similar experiences. I do not use them in this thread. If they notice this sort of thing, or others do, then they are free to comment and give their own narrative.

                          I make it perfectly clear that not all atheists are doing so. What about the original post is problematic? Why are you insisting on asserting things I do not assert to me?

                          Deal with the language given- do not insist that I reiterate things already typed. Do not try to distract this thread away from its main contention. Please see the last few paragraphs if you doubt my veracity.

                          Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

                          by ravagerofworlds2 on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 06:03:39 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

    •  I pity (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      protoplasmoid

      those who feel that they are constantly under assault by a tiny minority which rarely speaks its beliefs, and you think it should be never. Get back in the closet, eh? It must be hard living in such a small box.

      Seriously, look at your own words. How would you feel to read...

      It's all well and good to hold Christian belief.  It's all well and good to hold anti-atheist belief.  However, if you want somehow to build coalition with the majority for political ends YOU desire as Christians? Then you learn how to talk to people with respect without dissing their belief systems, and especially without dissing the fact that they DO NOT HAVE religion as an important part of their lives.

      •  I'm not sure... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ravagerofworlds2, shanikka

        ...what point you're making there Angela.

        The main idea here is that people can reference their backgrounds without being slammed for them.

        But, keep on slamming if that's what makes you happy...

      •  This times a thousand. (0+ / 0-)

        There just isn't any kind of real solid safe space for atheism. Whatsoever. That is supposedly a privilege only Christians get.

        •  safe place? (0+ / 0-)

          Let me get this straight- you're claiming that you are being victimized by Christians who are asking you not to attack people online simply because of their background?

          Perhaps you should look, making such easily disproved assertions. : /

          People want to talk about progressive politics on dailykos- they do not want to be evangelized by believers or nonbelievers.

          Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

          by ravagerofworlds2 on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 02:12:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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