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View Diary: Occupy Oakland: All Signs Point to Police Raid Tonight. Liveblog. (117 comments)

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  •  Seems like a trap to me to get (15+ / 0-)

    those who favor non-violence to tacitly approve of violent or destructive actions.

    And if taken literally would demand no cooperation with the police on any matter whatsoever, including, e.g., who murdered your spouse.

    •  There was a great moment a while beforehand, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JustJennifer, ER Doc

      one of the Communist organizers of the permitted march was doing a press conference about it and was asked about the "potential violence," and she said something like, "Any violence by protesters and anarchists will pale in comparison to the violence inflicted every day in Iraq and Afghanistan by US forces."

      The only people shocked were the usual conservatives and hand-wringers who aren't really on our side anyway.

      As for your second point, don't be ridiculous.  The Principles obviously only apply to things related to whatever the agreement is for.

      •  Not obvious at all. (9+ / 0-)

        In fact someone at the GA just a bit ago asked what would happen re:cooperation with police if someone got raped at the camp.

        •  I really hate the fact (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ER Doc, jpmassar, Actbriniel

          that people even think that for one second occupiers would object to someone calling the police if they were raped or someone was murdered.  I find this argument to be absurd in the extreme.  Not to mention, very illustrating about how indoctrinated people are by authority when living in regular society and how hard it is for some people to evolve when exposed to something different.

          I'd rather die than give you control ~ Trent Reznor

          by JustJennifer on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 09:23:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's something that has to be questioned (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Major Tom, jpmassar

            everything has to be questioned.  Police can be dangerous; is it automatically okay to invite them into a shared space without the consent of the other people of that space?

            •  Well... (6+ / 0-)

              I do think people have to understand that the rights of the collective end if violent crimes against a person happen in the occupation.   If I was raped (ugh, I hate to even say that) I would definitely go to the hospital and report it, and if someone in camp was the offender I would report that too.   My obligation to the other occupiers safety and to society as a whole trumps any agreement to not call the police on each other.

              In other words, I don't lose my ability to think for myself when becoming part of a collective.  

              Obviously these are exceptions and very rare exceptions at that.  

              I'd rather die than give you control ~ Trent Reznor

              by JustJennifer on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 09:30:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  This has been an issue (5+ / 0-)

                but the safer spaces committee has been set up to address it...they have professionals there who are trained in rape crisis counseling who work with victims to determine how to go forward. This was in part a response to the fact that in the beginning there were a few instances where victims were encouraged to not come forward and instead handle it internally (or in at least one situation, chose not to because she didn't want to bring bad publicity) It's not always clear cut because some people may not want to involve police, for a variety of reasons. But I'd be willing to bet that with the safer spaces committee there, rape victims probobly have more support within the camp than they would outside of it.

                R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
                October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

                by SwedishJewfish on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 09:37:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ugh, that sounds like Penn State and the Catholic (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jpmassar, erush1345

                  church--our little secret, must not report this to civil authorities.  

                  Sorry, but rapists need to be turned into the police, period.  Ask the boys Jerry Sandusky raped after Penn State decided to keep it internal.

                  "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

                  by Geekesque on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 10:34:27 PM PST

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                  •  As I said (6+ / 0-)

                    it's a bit more complicated than that when it comes to sexual assault. First and foremost, it should always be the victims choice on how to handle it, and they should never under any circumstances be pressured into not reporting it. That almost goes without say. But many rape victims do not feel comfortable reporting the crime, because it can be a very unpleasant experience. You need to get a rape kit, which is quite invasive and feels like another violation. You have to go through a police interview which can feel like an interrogation. You have to go through the courts system, which unfortunately still allows the victim to be put on trial. A lot of women (or men as the case may be) may not be willing to put themselves through that, and that is their choice. Unfortunately the result of that is a rapist is allowed to walk free. It's a tough situation. But I think that the safe spaces committe has really done an excellent job in handling this- I say this as a rape survivor and a certified rape crisis counselor with a lot of experience in how sexual violence is handled in the real world. Out of all the memes used against OWS I find the accusation that they are allowing women to get raped with no recourse is possibly the most offensive. Anyone who is victimized is surrounded by support and has 24 hour access to trained professionals and advocates. Rape is not an uncommon crime, yet once again the only time the MSM seems to care about it is when Occupy is involved. And the irony here is that Occupy is handling this in a way that the rest of the world should actually be emulating.

                    R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
                    October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

                    by SwedishJewfish on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 10:55:27 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

          •  This is what we stand for. (0+ / 0-)

            That thing I just said we stood for... we don't stand for that. But we stand for that. But not that.

            Words have definitions for a reason.

            If your St. Paul Principles say:

            we agree not to assist law enforcement
            actions against activists and others.

            That means you're not helping the authorities with any crime - murder, rape, whatever.

            Your sophistry sucks, and no one is buying it.

      •  yeah, apologia for violence is AWESOME. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345, Shockwave, kurt

        The 1% thanks you.

        "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

        by Geekesque on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 09:27:02 PM PST

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        •  As soneone who is both (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jpmassar, Major Tom, wu ming, blueoasis

          a rape survivor and a survivor of domestic violence I am pretty tired of being told that my willingness to show solidarity with people who may do things I disagree with against a PIECE OF PROPERTY makes me an apologist for violence.

          Maybe you weren't addressing me, but that accusation has definitely been made against me.  Sickening, really.  I know what violence is like.  I have carried the burden for almost 30 years of my life after being raped at 14.  

          I'd rather die than give you control ~ Trent Reznor

          by JustJennifer on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 09:33:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong, at least as it's interpreted in Oakland. (0+ / 0-)

        GA previously passed a motion pledging non-cooperation with police on anything related to the camp. And that was BEFORE OPD had ever raided the camp, shot people with teargas rounds and rubber bullets, and nearly beaten to death a small business owner who had already left the demonstration.

        This is our time. We can do this. We can change the world.

        by Simian on Mon Nov 14, 2011 at 12:08:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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