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View Diary: Support for Occupy Wall Street drops in new poll (306 comments)

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  •  So the fealty to "alternative tactics" and the (11+ / 0-)

    the refusal to condemn violence in GA in Oakland and elsewhere has clearly had no effect at all. Right. This was utterly predictable. Yet those of us who have been strongly advocating here and elsewhere for that condemnation have been consistently excoriated as being "too concerned with message" or "if MLK had been concerned with the press coverage he never would have gotten anywhere" or variations on that theme. Media intelligence is a critical component to any movement.

    The optics DO MATTER.

    And this poll indicates that whether support remained steady the undecided has gone decidedly negative. This in my view is exactly because in the month between early October and the latest poll is when the movement had the opportunity to call out the violence-fetishist window breaking leeches - and did not do so.

    This is the result.

    post hoc, ergo propter hoc

    by RvgAqs on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:23:17 AM PST

    •  that's a lot of assumption on your part. -nt (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cotterperson, mdmslle, pot, 0wn, 714day

      Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

      by UnaSpenser on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:25:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It is I agree. It is one aspect though I think you (6+ / 0-)

        would agree that the coverage and visuals - although clearly hyped and amped in joyful looping on  the MSM have been stilted to their own narrative and framing - has not been beneficial to the movement. While the shooting of Scott here in Oakland was in some sense, and perversely so, actually likely engendered positive reactions it is the followon visuals of shattered windows and burning dumpster after the General Strike that is the latest image that people remember. People have a short attention span as pointed out above, it is therefore critical to be consistent in how the "outside world" perceives the Occupy encampments, made doubly difficult by the editorializing inherent in the MSM's alleged "impartial" coverage of these stories inherent in their corporate owners' demands to frame it in a negative light. Would you not agree that violence perpetrated in proximity to Occupy actions makes that more difficult to overcome?

        post hoc, ergo propter hoc

        by RvgAqs on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:32:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle. nt (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mrbeen38

        Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

        by GoGoGoEverton on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:12:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Did people really say that about MLK? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aisling, stormicats, Evolutionary

      'Cause that's some powerful stupid. I know we on the left like to pretend that being right and loud is all it takes to build a movement, but when did we get the idea that the Civil Rights Movement was a bunch of plucky amateurs? Hell, they had a media plan in Montgomery before Rosa Parks got on the bus.

      Formerly known as Jyrinx.

      “If I can't dance to it, it's not my revolution.” ― Emma Goldman

      by Code Monkey on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:01:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think some of this is true. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Evolutionary, evergreen2, RvgAqs

      Our most recent peak seems to have been the general strike in Oakland--and then that was messed with by vandalism tactics which don't accomplish much and undermine the reputation of the movement, IMO.

      It's also true that dealing with people who have drug addiction or certain kinds of mental illness issues can increase crime, or at least trouble that can be exploited by the other side for their optics. And in addition to people who simply have been kicked off the edge of the map by our economic system, homeless people include people who are severely mentally ill or who have serious drug addiction problems.  I know that people are going to flame me for saying this, as if I'm against the homeless or see them as inferior, but if people have issues, they do, and lots of times homeless people do.

      The shooting in Oakland and the suicide in Burlington don't help either, and what all these things except the black bloc tactics have in common is this:  they are issues in our society that people don't like to look at, and Occupy has pulled the curtain off all of them. So the media uses the oldest trick in the book to blame Occupy for all of them.  Kill the messenger.

      The fact is that lots of young black men get shot in Oakland all the time and no one pays any mind.  The fact is that veterans kill themselves in fairly large numbers every day in this country, but no one has to look at it.  Occupy is there, so let's smear Occupy with it, and then, with the camps gone, we can go back to not looking at it again.

      The thing is, that we must regain this ground, by reassuring both ourselves and the American people that this is not over. That we can be trusted. That we can trust ourselves to build a new, beautiful and more just country than the one we inherited.  That no grief or violence is greater than our faith in each other.  Once again, we need to pledge our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.

      Being ignored is the difference between being a one percenter and an American.--sweeper

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 11:18:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Speak for yourself... (0+ / 0-)
      So the fealty to "alternative tactics" and the the refusal to condemn violence in GA in Oakland and elsewhere has clearly had no effect at all.

      Our Occupation has a comprehensive condemnation of violence, and it's posted front and center.  Our non-violence committee was the first one we formed.

      Your awareness is limited.

      •  Thats all well and good, but the GA did not pass (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SwedishJewfish, ozoozol

        any reso. It was withdrawn. I understand the reasons why from a process standpoint and am not sure I disagree with that. But you are really not addressing my argument here. As to my "awareness being limited" since the encampment began I have been down and participated there for 16 of those days, including the night of 10/25 and the GS. So yeah you might say I'm pretty invested. I am well aware of the things of which you speak, but what I am getting at (through a statement that was obvious snark BTW and your awareness apparently did not pick up in my first sentence) is unlike other Occupy sites, Occupy Oakland has not explicitly called out the tactics deployed after the General Strike through the vehicle of consensus in place - the GA. In the form of a declarative statement specifically distancing itself from those tactics, which is after all the "operating principle" of the Occupy movement and "approved statements" of OO specifically are the only ones that are "official" and serve as a "line of communication" especially after the 11/1 resolution. On October 27th the press release from OO stated "Occupy Oakland embraces a diversity of tactics among its supporters ..." On 11/1 the GA approved the statement asserting that the only official line of communication with OO was through the GA and "condemning unprincipled behavior" of people purporting to speak for OO. Unless something else has passed since the defeated "diversity of Tactics/Black Block" proposal and the withdrawn "Destructive Actions" proposal from 11/9, it has allowed those who would seek to destroy this movement by painting it with this caricature of window smashing, paint spraying, dumpster burning to proceed with that framing, augmented by the enabling media. In the vacuum of an "official" statement to the contrary passed by the General Assembly, all the front page proclamations allying with non violent civil disobedience principles and not specifically dissociating with those who view property destruction and violence as a viable tactic does not make it so.

        post hoc, ergo propter hoc

        by RvgAqs on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 04:03:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, yes, that IS speaking for yourself (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RvgAqs

          You're right.

          But you did open that umbrella very wide:

          the refusal to condemn violence in GA in Oakland and elsewhere

          In our GA, we have solidly condemned any violence (OR destruction of property).  It is at the core of our principles, come to through consensus, and I'm certain that other GAs have done the same.

          I assume from this response that you intended the quote to mean that the GA in Oakland has refused to condemn any violence in Oakland or elsewhere.  That was not clear to me, and my statement that your awareness is limited was meant as a comment about Occupations outside of Oakland.  I apologize.  I am certainly no expert at all about the internal politics in Oakland.  I do see why you take issue.

          •  Not at all, I understood you to mean (0+ / 0-)

            you were from Oakland! Thus my Clarence Darrow push back! Where r you BTW?

            post hoc, ergo propter hoc

            by RvgAqs on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 04:42:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Occupy Temecula here (0+ / 0-)

              -- though we pull attendance from throughout southwest Riverside county (Occupy Riverside is the same difference from where we live but my girlfriend and I commute to Temecula, so that's our home base).

              And honestly, I did appreciate the OO civics lesson.  It was informative :)

    •  I have been saying the same about Oakland (0+ / 0-)

      over and over.  Oakland is a violent town.  Protests in Oakland have regularly turned violent or caused property damage (I don't know if property damage is violence and I really don't care because the media will report it as violence).  The optics of a group of people camping in the middle of downtown who have already been accused of causing property damage and who have failed to denounce the use of property damage as a protest tactic is horrible.   It is.  Sorry folks.  

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