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  •  so who should we vote for? n/t (5+ / 0-)

    "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

    by G2geek on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 07:46:21 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

      •  bullsh*t. (12+ / 0-)

        unless you REALLY want a cain/romney/bachmann/perry/gingrich presidency.

        Is GlowNZ back yet?

        by edrie on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 08:34:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

          •  the only thing a primary will do is use up (10+ / 0-)

            the limited funding the dems have for the general.

            with koch and others sinking a boatload of cash into which ever republican stooge that runs, this election will be much closer than it ever should have to be.

            do you REALLY want to see a republican in the white house?

            if you want to see what obama can do, give him wide margins in the senate - enough to overcome the blue dogs AND give him back a huge margin in the house.

            THEN you'll see what "honesty" looks like.

            right now, it's all any dem can do to keep the doors barred to keep the republicans from giving away the treasury to their rich supporters.

            Is GlowNZ back yet?

            by edrie on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 08:46:42 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  please (20+ / 0-)

              he had the congress for two years... part of leading is both compromise and instilling your vision. If his vision means running to the middle every time the going gets tough then he needs to be reminded of who SOME of the base is.  

              As for the kochs? We can outspend them again

              #78?

              •  where have YOU been living these last two years? (15+ / 0-)

                certainly not in the same universe as the rest of us.

                obama did NOT "have the congress" - he had blue dog senators who voted republican-lite.  he did NOT have enough majority to pass his legislation, yet, he STILL got the ground floor health care act passed.

                those who decided that "sitting out" 2010 was a smart move now have a do-nothing republican congress that will not put forward ANY bill for spending, budget, jobs, or anything that will benefit anyone but the wealthiest 1% and the multinationals.

                with all the "poor little me-ism" because the democrats don't launch some uber-progressive agenda so "i'm gonna stay home or primary or vote 3rd" that goes on around this site (and has for the last 1 1/2 years), the chances of obtaining that super majority dwindle.  the chances of retaking the house, even though many now have major buyers' remorse, lessens.

                so, if you want to play in the political real world, then look at the reality involved - not some pie-in-the-sky, wide-eyed, idealistic helium balloon filled with coulda, woulda, shoudas.

                if we want obama to run to the left, then give him a left senate with 65-67 senators who vote SOLID left and do the same for the majority in the house.

                do the math.  it really IS that simple.

                Is GlowNZ back yet?

                by edrie on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 09:25:02 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  please (12+ / 0-)

                  first off: "a do-nothing republican congress that will not put forward ANY bill for spending, budget, jobs, or anything that will benefit anyone but the wealthiest 1% and the multinationals."

                  What has he DEM senate done? No budget in 2 years, That's what.

                  He DID have the DEM congress, you can complain about their ideological purity but wining or cajoling or even forcing their hand is called political leadership. Ditto with gops. I'm not asking for a perfect agenda, just don;t take me for granted the way the gop does their base.He'll never have a dictatorship, it is a divided country politically. He'll needs to push, compromise and fight when necessary.  Regressing towards the mean as a default stance isn't motivating.

                  •  do you have even a basic understanding (8+ / 0-)

                    of how congress operates?

                    the senate can NOT put forth a budget - all spending bills must originate in the house.

                    sheesh.

                    then you say:

                    you can complain about their ideological purity but wining or cajoling or even forcing their hand is called political leadership.

                    that's your complaint/statement, not mine.

                    if you want to "push" someone - how about "pushing" the republicans - you know the ones - those in the house and senate who are absolutely willing to let this country go bankrupt (except the very rich, who'll then buy up every scrap that falls from the rest of us).

                    know your goals.
                    know your "enemy"
                    know how to achieve your goals.

                    THAT is how you win the day - not by attacking the ONLY politician that has even the most meager chance of giving you what you want.  

                    this so reminds me of the counterproductive activities of that waste of energy group, code pink.

                    they were all about being noticed... didn't give a damn if they effected real change or not.  kept attacking those who were on the same side.

                    this is happening again.

                    how about attacking some friggin' republicans for a change!

                    Is GlowNZ back yet?

                    by edrie on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 10:54:38 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  YES I do (7+ / 0-)

                      "all spending bills must originate in the house."

                      Where they have... and not been acted upon by the Senate.
                      So please don't lecture me.

                      And I am NOT into wasting time, but if you think he will ever have a supermajority of liberals in both chambers and everything will be peachy and magic ponies then you might want to get a hold of some reality.

                      My point is that he WILL have to deal with moderates and conservatives within and especially from outside his party. He needs to do just that. ANYONE can get what they want when everyone agrees with them.

                      Attacking republicans foes goes without saying, but that isn't the point of my comment.

                      •  SHEESH! STUPENDOUS AND ABUNDANT IGNORANCE! (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        maf1029, Dirtandiron

                        What part of "One Senator can Monkey-Wrench ANYTHING HE WANTS"

                        How in the hell does the President "deal with moderates and conservatives....outside his party" when they are completely intransigent about EVERYTHING, even crap THEY INVENTED?

                        Sounds like you think "Well, he just SHOULD"

                        "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

                        by leftykook on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:25:37 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  What part of (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Johnny Q

                          "It is their freaking job"! and they have a majority don't you understand? Unless you think that just sitting around waiting to do their job until they have 61 votes is OK?

                          And besides, Reid as much as saidthey don't want to pass a budget for political purposes. In 2010, neither THE House nor THE Senate offered a budget. Reid and Pelosi thought passing a budget would hurt their chances in the midterms. So they did nothing, on purpose, and lost the House anyway. Nice work.

                          So stop calling me names until you know and understand all the facts yourself.

                          And as i said "ANYONE can get what they want when everyone agrees with them."

                        •  What part of Obama has a veto (2+ / 0-)

                          don't you understand. We wouldn't have a fiscal crisis if Obama had allowed the Bush tax cuts to expire through the veto.

                          The fact that he didn't is really all we need to know.

                          •  So you think... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dirtandiron

                            ...the President was wrong to refuse to allow the taxes of low and middle-income taxpayers to be raised, and to have the Unemployment insurance extended?  If he had not agreed to continue the whole range of Bush tax cuts, he would have lost these things.  He apparently thought that extending UI and not raising taxes on the middle class was worth taking the deal; you don't.

                            I wonder what the people who continued to get UI thought about it?

                            "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

                            by leftykook on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 12:34:43 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Since the solvency of the country (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Johnny Q, quill

                            was a risk, yes he should have done the right thing.

                            Unemployment is still high, the extension was a band-aid. Restoring tax rates to former levels for everyone is unfortunate, but considering the alternative, a necessary evil. With the absence of the estate tax, we have created a new, especially evil, royal class who dictates even more misery for the poor and middle class.

                            It really was a no brainer, massive harm caused by the continuation of the cuts, versus a short term benefit for some unemployed people, if you believe that's why he did it. Keep in mind Obama said he didn't veto because of the message sent by the midterm election.

                            Assuming Obama wasn't truthful about the reason he didn't veto and the revisionists are correct, increased taxes on all classes would benefit the low and middle class in the long run anyway. Let me assure you that the Weimar Republic austerity that will forced on all of us as a result of these cuts during the next faux "crisis" will be far more painful for the lower classes than the restoration of former tax rates could ever have been.

                            It just didn't seem like a chess move, more like another indication of the President's true ideology.

                          •  Why? (0+ / 0-)
                            Assuming Obama wasn't truthful

                            Why would you assume the President was lying?

                            "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

                            by leftykook on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 07:37:22 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ill chime in as well (0+ / 0-)

                            "...the President was wrong to refuse to allow the taxes of low and middle-income taxpayers to be raised,..."

                            YES! if the Bush tax cuts were so damned awful and bad then only keeping 1/3 of them isn;t being intellectual honest now is it? The big $$ in those cuts 92.3) is in the middle and lower brackets. But those were good? But the tax cuts were bad? My head is spinning.

                            Besides, they are the Obama tax cuts now. So are they good or bad?

              •  Please, he never had 60 solid votes (12+ / 0-)

                in the Senate, which is what blocked everything good that came out of the House.  

                He's never run to the middle, he's enticed the Republicans to believe their own BS while neatly fleecing them and setting them up to fail abysmally down the road, ie closer to 2012.  And that's what's happening.

                He's changed the national narrative, pretty much by himself, taken away the Republican's main claims to fame - defense and fiscal responsibility, left them at 9% approval, with the defense and medical industrial complexes breathing down their necks because the Super-Committee can't act sanely without pissing off the Tea Party.

                Part of leading, the best part of leading, is having a vision and implementing it in the face of waffling from your own party and complete blockades from the opposition party.  There's a lot of information out there demonstrating what he's accomplished.  You'll be a lot less stressed if you start looking for facts and ignoring the Heritage Foundation daily memos.

                I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

                by I love OCD on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 10:20:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Tiresome nonsense (0+ / 0-)

                59 does NOT equal 60!

                150 filibusters equals 400 Pelosi-passed house bills thaty died.

                150 filibusters equals "lousy health care compromise with no public option"

                But it's ALL Obama's fault, and we should make him weaker as a lesson, WE'LL show him!

                "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

                by leftykook on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:19:01 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  obama will crush whatever idiot the GOP sends up (9+ / 0-)

              it doesn't look like it yet, but that's how it'll play out. the battle against the koch cash will be at the state and congressional level, with a special focus on trojan horse initiatives.

              •  yep - which is why we need to be focusing (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Khun David, artebella, musicalhair

                on the senate and house races instead of this ineffective site "navel-gazing" attitude of "obama disappointed meeeeeee!"

                and, as for initiatives, they are so dangerous - bought and paid for by special interest groups and worded so that when folks vote "no" - they are really voting "yes" on the issue.

                Is GlowNZ back yet?

                by edrie on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 10:56:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Give him all that ... (14+ / 0-)
              if you want to see what obama can do, give him wide margins in the senate - enough to overcome the blue dogs AND give him back a huge margin in the house.

              ... and he will still fill his cabinet and economic team with Wall Street and banking insiders, while ignoring progressive economists.

              •  perhaps he should fill the cabinet with the (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Khun David, happy camper

                OWS college kids?  

                well, mcgovern tried that - i know, i was a part of the campaign - and those sophomores and juniors didn't have a friggin' CLUE how to manage or run a campaign.  it made me physically ill to see "loyalty" trump wisdom and put this nation back in the hands of nixon.

                youthful exuberance needs to be directed and mellowed and honed into workable political capital - not just random "mic checks" of noise without any direction.

                how many people who originally supported OWS are moving on because of no real clear direction.  if the group can focus and find leaders who will clearly express what the group wants, then there is a chance that it will make meaningful change.

                generalized unfocused protests without goals (other than over-generalized ones that have no means of being attained) will eventually turn off people who seek REAL change.

                i hope that doesn't happen -  i really do.  we are desperate to ride the momentum into real change - but, so far, the "momentum" is like an indiscriminate seeping flood covering ground but without purpose.

                when it finally recedes, the damage and cleanup will overshadow any functional change that might have taken place.

                Is GlowNZ back yet?

                by edrie on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 11:00:56 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Odd how you frame a whole reply around ... (17+ / 0-)

                  ... something absurd that I never suggested:

                  perhaps he should fill the cabinet with the OWS college kids?  well, mcgovern tried that - i know, i was a part of the campaign - and those sophomores and juniors didn't have a friggin' CLUE how to manage or run campaign.

                  I was thinking, rather, that perhaps Obama could have filled his cabinet with ... oh, I don't know ... some of the highly qualified and experienced liberal Democrats and economists he had on his campaign team, say -- (the ones he summarily got rid of the second he won the election) -- or any of the other highly qualified progressive Democrats around.  

                  Or he could have chosen even just a few of them.  Such Democrats aren't that hard to find.  Some have even won Nobel prizes for their expertise.  They just need to be valued enough to be looked for in the first place.

                  It's not like obstructionist Republicans or Blue Dogs would have had any influence over those decisions.  It has been the President's choice -- and his alone -- to put and push for so many Wall Street scum and former (or even current) Republican players on his team.

                  •  okay - fair enough - i leapt to my (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Khun David, happy camper

                    past bitter experience of watching mcgovern blow his campaign out of the water by using inexperienced kids. (hey, i was only 27 so wasn't THAT experienced, either!

                    but, as for your question, perhaps it is as simple as you work with the congress you have - and after 2010 election, he couldn't get a liberal or progressive agenda passed if he tried, so he TRIED to do the next best thing, work for compromise.

                    in normal political years, a normal political climate, the members of the house and senate set aside pure political ideology and worked to get the people's business done with as much pull in their ideological direction as possible.

                    only, THIS time, the ONLY agenda the republicans have, even at the expense of the entire nation (credit rating, jobs, economic collapse, destruction of the middle class, etc.) is to defeat obama and retake the white house.

                    they don't care who they hurt in the process.  mcconnell made it clear:  the republican agenda for the two years between 2010 and 2012 would be to drive obama out of the white house by ANY MEANS possible!

                    this is not the normal way government has ever worked before.  we are in a citizens' united time warp where the good of the nation is sacrificed on the alter of those who hold the money and the power.  why?  because they (the monied and powerful) know that if they lose the house and the white house and the dems hold and gain in the senate, they will be re-regulated into oblivion!

                    we live in unusual times - sick times - and our only physician sits in the white house trying to make those in the middle acutely aware of who is doing this to the country.  he can't do that by taking a hard stance to the left because many americans in the middle are center or to the right of center.  to get them to abandon those destroying this nation, obama has to court their votes - ours our insufficient to win this thing.

                    the scary thing is that the more we "polarize" and "scare" those in the middle, the harder it will be to drive out those on the far right who would destroy this nation.

                    when you state:

                    It has been the President's choice -- and his alone -- to put and push for so many Wall Street scum and former (or even current) Republican players on his team.
                    you are misguided and misinformed.  you assign too much power to the position of president.  that bush2 abused the office and tried to turn the executive branch into a dictatorship is not the model you should be seeking to foist on this president.

                    we need to return to the roots of democracy - and that starts at the top - no matter HOW much we don't like it when the president has to move toward the center to take back the country.

                    Is GlowNZ back yet?

                    by edrie on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 12:07:36 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Cabinet secretaries (0+ / 0-)

                    must be confirmed by the Senate. He doesn't get to pick just anyone he feels like.

                    "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                    by happy camper on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:49:49 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I figured hippie-punching (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  musicalhair, 420 forever, Johnny Q

                  was at the core of this.  Yawnage.

                  The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                  "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                  by Punditus Maximus on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:06:04 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  you, kid - do you even know how old i am? (0+ / 0-)

                    before you start the trite whining - be aware that MY generation is that of the 60s and WE were the ones who changed things - like segregation, the equal rights protections, the right of people to marry when of different racial backgrounds, etc.

                    so, before you spout off - you should really know to whom you are speaking.

                    yawnage - from this totally unimpressed 60s generation woman.

                    Is GlowNZ back yet?

                    by edrie on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 12:57:02 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Niemann... do u really believe that? n/t (0+ / 0-)
            •  So it's all completely hopeless, isn't it ? (0+ / 0-)

              And all the campaigning, and voting and speechifying is just kabuki theatre and Potemkin village-building .

              Richard's our King
              And John is his brother
              If one is a Norman
              Than what is the other ?

            •  Here's the thing, (0+ / 0-)

              the succession of "fiscal crises" happened within weeks of Obama's failure to veto the Bush tax cuts. There would be no crisis if he'd done the right thing there.

              Reports are that the Super committee will agree to paltry and useless tax increases in exchange for the the destruction of the economy through the extension of the Bush tax cuts. Obama will naturally agree to this because that's what he does. The one thing we can count on is that he won't surprise us with a Profile in Courage moment.

              No matter who wins we can count on further military engagement in the MI, specifically Iran.

              There isn't much to look forward to, we're very, very, fucked.  

          •  That's really funny. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sue B, happy camper

            Maybe he's ignoring the "Left Wing" because they don't have much to offer in terms of real solutions?  Because they jump on so many Republican memes without checking for reality?  Or because there's always been a branch of the left that engages in auto-destruct rather than taking on real problems in common-sense ways?

            Most people who describe themselves as Progressives, Liberals, or Democrats are very happy with what President Obama has accomplished amid a firestorm of lies, damned lies and obstructionism.  

            I've yet to see much written here regarding the trouble the Republicans on the Super-committee are about to be confronted with, because I haven't seen much written that admits that President Obama is a masterful politician with an agenda any true progressive ought to be cheering.

            I remember during the campaign he said said he doesn't talk about issues or take action until he's got the facts straight.  It's a really mature and productive approach to serious issues, and one I admire.  I wish it was a more widespread attitude - this country could use some sensible discussion.  Soundbites and slogans are for toothpaste, not running a complex country.

            I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

            by I love OCD on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 10:10:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  So now we're back to a worthless Holder... (4+ / 0-)

          ...and a disappointing President, with nowhere to turn.

          Yeah - no wonder we're in the streets.

          We reach for the stars with shaking hands in bare-knuckle times.

          by TheOrchid on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 04:53:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, now that you mention it (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            expatjourno

            It has become very apparent, especially watching my rep - Rep Cleaver go from being on the progressive caucus to signing a letter putting SS, medicare and medicaid on the table without requiring additional tax revenue, that we have no real electoral promise of fixing this. When the lobbyists can do a lap dance on every rep and sen and we can only stand by and see the results, it is clear to me that we cannot count on those folks representing us. We cannot give them that hand holding through fund raisers, or the "extra experience" of golf games at exotic golf courses, or the freedom of having legislation handed to them already written and codified and with other reps and sens signing on because the lobbyists are so numerous in dc they can hand hold each and every one of those who supposedly represent us. But if WE were to go and talk to the rep, guess what. We get screened. And we get screened by aides who are also being courted by lobbyists.

            Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society. - Mark Twain

            by glitterscale on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:09:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  We need Senate primaries and House primaries (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Geekesque

        That much is certain.

        Just one single primary as you state is not sufficient.


        Bridge Closed: Republican Tax CUTS At Work

        You just gonna stand there and bleed
        Or you gonna do something about it?

        by bronte17 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 09:28:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  waste of effort (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        high uintas, alizard, BYw, artebella

        local, state and congressional races (especially democratic primaries) will get us more bang for the buck.

      •  We need a new party n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jhecht

        Peace. Love. Weed. Poontang.

        by PlanetTreasures on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 05:08:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  We are still taking the problems with us (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ruh Roh

          if we move to change parties. The money, the lobbyists, the special interests, the oil, the banksters, are like bees. We would just present another bed of flowers to them.

          Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society. - Mark Twain

          by glitterscale on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:11:05 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I still believe we should call for his resignation (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lotlizard, willie2011

        If he runs again then it's not possible for this country to survive with 4 more years of this, and the Democratic Party will be destroyed forever.  

        I love what I "thought" he was.  The reality of what he "is" causes me great distress.  

    •  Why is any criticism of Obama automatically (27+ / 0-)

      treated as some sort of disloyalty?  The fact that he has remained silent this week is disturbing.

       And no, that does not mean I want to vote for someone else, it means I want him to start protecting Americans, even those wearing press credentials in American cities.

      There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. - Elizabeth Warren

      by Susan Grigsby on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 09:19:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  obama in the general (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      expatjourno, artebella

      but focus our energies entirely on primary battles at local, state and congressional levels, so as to provide obama with an aggressive and non-deferential legislative opponent willing to push him to do what he ought to have been doing from the get-go, and which will start moving state and local governments in sustainable, progressive directions while the perpetually useless federal government tries to get its act together. and along with all of this electoral stuff, we need to be doing lots of nonpartisan direct action and radically horizontal debate and discussion with our neighbors to eventually build a broad societal consensus capable of sustaining the paradigm that will replace the one currently coming apart at the seams.

      2012, if played right, should be a wave election, but with the greatest effects at the lower levels of govt.

    •  No change either way. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      expatjourno, Johnny Q

      The Bush tax cuts will be extended, guaranteeing the bankruptcy of the country either way. Major criminals will continue to be allowed to blunder with impunity either way. If Obama wins he'll be forced to appoint a conservative to the Supreme Court as a "compromise" so the Court will be the same either way.

      Obama will throw some rhetorical crumbs to the base during the campaign. Enough of us will come out betting on the triumph of hope over experience to put him over the top, largely because the Republican opponent will be so weak.

      The difference will be at the periphery, if that's important to you, vote for Obama.  

    •  win back the house n/t (0+ / 0-)

      "Pelosi was the only damn one of the entire lot who showed any ounce of leadership the last two years"-- The Dead Man

      by musicalhair on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 11:45:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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