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View Diary: Pregnant Woman Blasted with Pepper Spray by SPD Says She Miscarried (319 comments)

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  •  does does make you wonder though (0+ / 0-)

    why a person with a delicate medical condition, such as pregnancy, would put themselves out into situations that in the last couple weeks and months have had several documented instances of the use of physical violence, chemical weapons, "non-lethal" sonic weapons, as well as mass arrests and other hardships.

    Standing up for men and their interests does not constitute misogyny. www.youtube.com/manwomanmyth

    by SetaSan on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 07:51:17 AM PST

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    •  So pregnant chicks (16+ / 0-)

      don't have the right to free speech, I guess? (yes yes, I know, you don't have to angrily reply  "That's not what I meant!" I know that's not what you meant.)

      For the record, unless you have been prescribed bedrest by the doctor for the duration of your pregnancy, a pregnant woman isn't delicate and she is perfectly capable of being functional in every way, shape, and form (other than maybe climbing up on a ladder or something, because a pregnant woman's center of gravity changes)

      Therefore, if you want to take part in a peaceful protest, and if we weren't living in a freaking police state where police DO shit like pepper spray people for Protesting While Liberal, there's nothing wrong with a pregnant woman showing up at a protest. She felt strongly enough about the protest to be there, why shouldn't she be there?

    •  Yes, like farming, assembly line work, childcare, (13+ / 0-)

      eldercare, flatwater Olympic kayaking...

      Perhaps it is time your quaint notions join the 21st century.

      Pregnancy is no more a "delicate condition" than "having a spleen" or "having a cranium." Perhaps people with spleens shouldn't put themselves where police batons can cause lacerations, and people with skulls shouldn't put them where tear gas canisters can fracture them.

      Oh, and I guess the civil-rights-era demonstrations showed us that having arms and legs is a "delicate" condition, and that people with such a condition shouldn't put them in the way of K9 dogs.

      And the demonstrations in Syria prove that having a body is such a delicate condition that embodied people shouldn't put them in the path of bullets.

      We should all just stay in our homes to avoid police brutality. Anything else is clearly "asking for it."

      •  I take it you must be an OBGYN (0+ / 0-)

        or a sophist.

        A fetus and its support network are a lot more complicated and tenuous than a kidney or a spleen. After having witnessed my wife having 5 miscarriages and a still-birth I'm sure there is more to having a baby than having a spleen.

        That video makes me ill. How could I not feel a wracking sympathy for this woman.

        Given that, should we start sending asthmatics to the front lines to deal with the pepper police? Don't they have 1st Amendment rights too so they should be front and center. That would make the police think twice before ever using pepper spray again, right?

        The problem is that the police aren't the only ones bearing a moral obligation, the protestors share some.  Is that blaming the victims, or counting the cost?

        "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Mohandas Gandhi

        by 2dimeshift on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 03:12:26 PM PST

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        •  The police are the ones engaging in brutality (0+ / 0-)

          without justification. The blame belongs entirely to them IMO. I would be interested in the calculus by which you assign "moral obligation" to the protesters. At what level of moral obligation is it ok for police to engage in brutality?

          •  None. However we know that they are (0+ / 0-)

            charged with keeping "order". If we are civilly disobedient we will provoke a response (and that is the entire response), ideally that response is going to be disproportionate which is why we are doing it. Putting pregnant women, asthmatics and geriatrics in the front line is also morally reprehensible given the response that we KNOW is coming.

            Headline; "Occupiers Use Children and Pregnant Women as Human Shields to Further Goals".

            Hearts and minds....

            "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Mohandas Gandhi

            by 2dimeshift on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 11:33:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  should read (and that is the entire purpose), n/t (0+ / 0-)

              "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Mohandas Gandhi

              by 2dimeshift on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 11:33:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  As an asthmatic grandmother, I DISAGREE (0+ / 0-)

              I am not "putting" people on the front lines. I march of my own volition. Are you suggesting that older people stay home? Families stay home? That only the young and fit march? Won't that contribute to the meme already being pressed by Faux News that the only people protesting are spoiled college brats and homeless bums?

              If we engage in peaceful civil disobedience we should expect and demand that the police, whose salaries we pay, respond proportionately and professionally -- without brutality, and that includes without chemicals.

              There should be no litmus test regarding Occupation participants based on our fear of police brutality.

              •  While that sounds wonderful ideologically (0+ / 0-)

                there are real life consequences when put into practice, isn't there? You have a right to climb Mt. Everest too but that doesn't make it a good idea. We're not talking about free speech here, we're talking about activities on the civil disobedient and "action" side of the balance sheet. To assume any kind of safety when dealing with police trying to "gain compliance" is simply ignoring the risk. Should the police not try to maintain order? We know very well that they will and that is the whole mechanism behind an occupying action.

                Dealing with a non-compliant public is no fun (I know). Does that mean that police are allowed to be brutal? Absolutely not. Is it predictable, yes. Putting pressure on people (even police) is going to have this effect.

                As an EMT I've performed 1st Aid on people with the person who most likely hurt them in the room, sometimes with police presence, sometimes without. The tension involved is palpable. I'm glad for my police friends and I do not envy the problems they face.

                Being civilly disobedient is going to create tension and test the moral fiber of MANY police officers. Some will not hold up under it (depending on how intense it gets). Should we tar whole departments for the bad behavior of a few, no. Should we expect and demand civil behavior from individual police officers, absolutely. But please be realistic about the situation we are facing and go into it with your eyes wide open.

                (BTW, shouting "Fuck You Pig!" at the top of your lungs may not be violent, but neither is it CIVIL).

                "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Mohandas Gandhi

                by 2dimeshift on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 02:11:49 PM PST

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      •  raincrow, Very Well Said. n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        raincrow
    •  I guess on one hand (17+ / 0-)

      we could have a society where pregnant women are expected to stay home so as to avoid getting kicked in the stomach and sprayed by cops,

      Or...

      We could have a society where cops don't kick pregnant women and spray them with chemical weapons.

      We already have death panels. They're called insurance companies.

      by aztecraingod on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 11:33:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  i'd opt for number 2. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FloridaSNMOM, drmah

        but let's face it. It's not the world we live in today. The world has many dangers in it, not least of of all is ourselves. There will NEVER has been or ever will be a society where the power of government will not use what ever force it thinks it needs to force compliance from the people.

        Standing up for men and their interests does not constitute misogyny. www.youtube.com/manwomanmyth

        by SetaSan on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 11:57:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The YouTube channel (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Throw The Bums Out, grover

          in your sig line tells me all I need to know about where you're coming from on uppity wimmins and their delicate condition.

          FEH.

          "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

          by Sharoney on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 12:05:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Given your logic, I guess that (0+ / 0-)

            you would argue that if anyone is going to get pepper sprayed and kicked in the stomach it might as well be a pregnant woman. To do it to others and not them would be discrimination and we cannot have that.

            I'm not for kicking or pepper spraying, I'm also not for having pregnant women in the front line of encounters with jack boots.

            Please say you are not also.

            "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Mohandas Gandhi

            by 2dimeshift on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 03:16:33 PM PST

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            •  Straw men are fun.... (0+ / 0-)

              nice try.

              But thanks for pertectin' us female type people from ourselves!

              "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

              by Sharoney on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 04:52:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Calling it a straw man doesn't make it one. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SetaSan

                Okay, first you apparently want to play on the "pertectin'" instincts of society by making an issue of the loss of this pregnancy and then you want to criticize society for even having it.

                You don't see a dissonance here? Okay.

                "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Mohandas Gandhi

                by 2dimeshift on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 05:05:18 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  And if the pregnancy was unimportant, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SetaSan

            why are we commenting in a diary about it?

            Either it matters or it doesn't.

            I suppose you think it would be okay for a pregnant woman to live with a few dozen toxoplasmosis infected cats as well. It would be a sin to even consider the risk to the pregnancy.

            "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Mohandas Gandhi

            by 2dimeshift on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 03:22:28 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  plays into the police's hands (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eclare, Calamity Jean, raincrow

      After all, the police violence, including the deployment of pepper spray, has essentially been punitive and threatening.

      "We don't like what you're doing, it annoys us, and the legal penalties are minor so we're going to punish you now. This will also make you an example to others so they will comply."

      And she did try to get out when things turned ugly.

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