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View Diary: Daily Kos/SEIU State of the Nation Poll: Democrats retake lead on generic ballot (133 comments)

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  •  I read this. And what the hell are we doing? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MichaelNY

    I read:

    You are comparing Bush's record with what you imagine the Gore record might have been.  We don't have a Gore record to study, so, at best, the comparison is speculative.

    And I read the context, in which I said Gore was meaningfully better than Bush, and you said I couldn't prove it.

    Let's both step back and take a deep breath. We're on a website dedicated to progressive politics, in 2011, and we're arguing about whether Gore was better than Dubya? Seriously? Seriously? What the hell are we doing?

    "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

    by HeyMikey on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 08:35:52 AM PST

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    •  I keep forgetting how many people are here. (0+ / 0-)

      I've introduced myself as a conservative so many times I forget that lots of people still don't know me.

      My apologies for that.

      Question:
      How progressive was Gore's defense of NAFTA?

      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

      by dinotrac on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 09:41:10 AM PST

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      •  I'm basically OK with NAFTA. Etc. (0+ / 0-)

        I realize that puts me a bit out of the progressive mainstream.

        But I don't begrudge poor people wanting to support their families. I don't see Mexicans or Chinese or whoever as inherently less entitled to do so than Americans.

        That doesn't mean there's no room for improvement in "free trade" as usually practiced. It should not be a "race to the bottom." Basically, if I were King of Trade I'd allow tariff-free trade in all goods that are:

        1. Produced by people paid a living wage for their locality;

        2. In reasonably safe working conditions,

        3. Using reasonably environmentally-friendly processes,

        4. Who have the right to organize.

        I think that puts me out of step with most people on both "sides" of the trade issue.

        While I usually agree with progressives generally on most issues, I don't feel the need to kneejerk defend every position that every progressive has ever taken on every issue.

        Similarly, I give Dubya some credit for increasing funding for PEPFAR, and giving Joann Barnhart enough clout to make real improvements at the Social Security Administration, and probably a couple of other things that don't come to mind right now. But overall, Dubya was just terrible. Horrendous.

        "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

        by HeyMikey on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 11:00:03 AM PST

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        •  He also was better than most Presidents in dealing (0+ / 0-)

          with Africa, especially with regard to the AIDS epidemic.

          Mind you, that was a very low bar to begin with, but credit where credit is due.

          I'm OK -- mostly -- with free trade, except that our policies need to recognize that capital can move around the world more freely than it did in the old days and that a nation does have a national defense interest in keeping its people working and productive.

          I agree that Mexicans, Africans, Vietnamese and all should prosper, but that's an issue for their governments more than ours.  Our government is charged with protecting American interests.

          LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

          by dinotrac on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 11:08:10 AM PST

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          •  Various. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MichaelNY
            Africa, especially with regard to the AIDS epidemic.

            That's PEPFAR.
            a nation does have a national defense interest in keeping its people working and productive.

            Wait a minute, you're sounding like a liberal Democrat. And that's an issue on which I agree with liberal Democrats.
            I agree that Mexicans, Africans, Vietnamese and all should prosper, but that's an issue for their governments more than ours.  Our government is charged with protecting American interests.

            Treating people decently is always in American interests. That's what has traditionally made us exceptional. The notion that we should look out for our own short-term profit and screw everything and everybody else is both shortsighted and distressingly common among the worst countries in the world--countries we certainly don't want to be lumped with.

            "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

            by HeyMikey on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 11:22:45 AM PST

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          •  His AIDS aid program for Africa (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SoCalGal23

            was the ONLY good thing I can think of that GW did, from my point of view.

            And yes, you need to preface the kind of argument you were making with the statement that you are a conservative. It's assumed that anyone posting here who is not known to be a conservative is at least left of center. That's less true among Daily Kos Elections regulars, but we don't generally post things like you did, instead concentrating on analysis of campaigns and elections.

            Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

            by MichaelNY on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 09:29:55 PM PST

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