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View Diary: Really?? Over a Meaningless Committee of Insane Truthers? (298 comments)

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  •  America did the same to my grandparents (9+ / 1-)

    I'm 70 and my Grandmother and Grandfather were forced marched to Oklahoma in the late 1870's. Over a third of my Ponca Nation died on the march and in the concentration camp afterwards. Hitler in fact learned some of his practices from the American treatment of Native Americans.

    Why should the world view America any different than Nazi Germany? Should American presidents who did this to my people be vilified in the same way Nazi Germany's leaders are today? I loved my grandparents, they were kind and gentle humans just as I'm sure your relatives were, so I'm always curious about how people differenciate between the two attempts at genocide.

    America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

    by cacamp on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 03:11:07 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  the difference lies in the systematic nature of it (6+ / 0-)

      The Nazis killed at least 90% of the Jews they could get their hands on.  They killed them just to kill them, not to get land or money or anything else.  And they put resources into eliminating the Jews as a people even at the expense of losing the war.  Removing the Jewish people from the face of the Earth was the primary goal of the Nazi leadership, not a side effect of their expansion program or anything like that.

      •  You're jumping into the frying pan here (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Seamus D, tomjones

        because there are people who see no difference, and who claim there IS no difference.

        You will undoubtedly be bombarded with references to Andrew Jackson and William T. Sherman and other notorious vindictive bigots.

        You may hear some of the ineradicable Conspiracy Theories "proving" that the US Government has an unbroken record of implacable hostility to the original inhabitants.

        You're in for a lot of fun. Not.

        If it's
        Not your body
        Then it's
        Not your choice
        AND it's
        None of your damn business!

        by TheOtherMaven on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 03:39:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  you're wrong on all counts (10+ / 0-)

          You're wrong about what I wrote and you're wrong about what the arguments are about the American genocide.

          But as I said below I was wrong to bring it up here, it's too off topic and needs more room to explore. I agree with the diarist on the subject of his diary and I don't want to change the topic.

          America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

          by cacamp on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 04:04:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tomjones

            This is always true, every time, everywhere, about every subject.

            One invalid assertion can ruin a whole diary - and sometimes has.

            As to something like the "Bush/Blair tribunal story" - geeze, too bad it wasn't an even quasi-reputable outfit. Now nobody's gonna touch it with a 20-foot Lower Slobovian. ;-)

            If it's
            Not your body
            Then it's
            Not your choice
            AND it's
            None of your damn business!

            by TheOtherMaven on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 04:11:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Thought you weren't going to do this anymore. (7+ / 0-)

          Knock it off.  You've proved your ignorance on Native issues several times over already, so why don't you let Carter and fizziks have an adult discussion and quit hijacking it?

          Authentic Native American silverwork, jewelry, photography, and other art here.

          by Aji on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 04:11:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Check the thread - Carter hijacked it and apologiz (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tomjones

            ed for doing to.

            And I refuse to be told that I am "wrong" for repeatedly calling out an unsubstantiated Conspiracy Theory as an unsubstantiated Conspiracy Theory. There should be one rule about that, universally applied, with no exceptions.

            But, again, this is deep meta and really warrants a separate discussion.

            If it's
            Not your body
            Then it's
            Not your choice
            AND it's
            None of your damn business!

            by TheOtherMaven on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 04:35:29 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, you seized on opportunity . . . (7+ / 0-)

              to slam the NDNs here over their refutation of your pet CT, and your ridiculous insults leveled at a Native American trained academic and spiritual elder who knows much more about his topics than someone who plays dress-up fake Indian for SCA.  And then you doubled, tripled, quadrupled, and quintupled down on your insulting and rude behavior, both publicly and privately.  So, no, we're not tolerating it without pushback.  Sorry.  You're wrong about us, and every time you bring it up, we'll just reiterate that.  You don't get to take swipes at us via hijacking someone else's diary, and then project with  "Hijack!" at us to try to avoid the repercussions.  Nice additional swipe in Nulwee's diary, BTW.  You're on a roll tonight.  Fitting, on the night before tomorrow's hijack of us on a  national scale.

              Authentic Native American silverwork, jewelry, photography, and other art here.

              by Aji on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 04:42:06 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Let's have a meta pie fight (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tomjones

                right in the middle of someone else's thread.

                We are arguing about a particular instance that is apparently an old case of the Circle Jerk of Attribution, so old that it is taken as incontrovertible fact. But IF you take the trouble to dig into the primary sources (which I hope you do), I think you will find that Writer A (secondary or tertiary source) combined a factual error with an unsupported allegation, which was disregarded until Writer B (tertiary source) saw it, assumed it must be true because it a) was in print and b) fit so neatly with his own theories, and recycled it. Then Writers C, D and E (more tertiary sources) came along.... You've seen the "Citogenesis" diagrams, I think?.

                By the way, I do not play "dress-up fake Indian" for the SCA or for any other organization. The focus of the SCA is on medieval and Renaissance EUROPEAN history. I do not think there is anyone currently active in the organization who claims to have a Native American persona of any sort whatsoever.

                If it's
                Not your body
                Then it's
                Not your choice
                AND it's
                None of your damn business!

                by TheOtherMaven on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 05:12:16 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I wish I could rec this several times (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Aji, no way lack of brain

                My favorite parts:

                No, you seized on opportunity to slam the NDNs here over their refutation of your pet CT, and your ridiculous insults leveled at a Native American trained academic and spiritual elder who knows much more about his topics than someone who plays dress-up fake Indian for SCA.
                Fitting, on the night before tomorrow's hijack of us on a  national scale.

                lol.

                Kinda like the undead.

                Promised to go away but then comes right back.

                (see my comments below)

                •  [Snort] (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  navajo, no way lack of brain

                  If my coffee were not still brewing, my laptop would be wearing it.  Undead, indeed. :-D

                  Authentic Native American silverwork, jewelry, photography, and other art here.

                  by Aji on Thu Nov 24, 2011 at 05:31:25 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Once something is on the Internet it NEVER dies (0+ / 0-)

                  Doesn't matter what it is, doesn't matter who said it, doesn't matter whether it's factual or a grotesque funhouse-mirror distortion - it's out there and it never, never dies.

                  Doesn't even matter whether you (generic you) later find out what a total ass you made of yourself and try to apologize - the original crap is still floating around and will sooner or later come back to bite you.

                  I notice that you (specific you) NEVER acknowledged this comment:

                  By the way, I do not play "dress-up fake Indian" for the SCA or for any other organization. The focus of the SCA is on medieval and Renaissance EUROPEAN history. I do not think there is anyone currently active in the organization who claims to have a Native American persona of any sort whatsoever.

                  You not only did not acknowledge it, you REPEATED the bogus crap that someone else (who self-evidently knows absolutely NOTHING about the Society for Creative Anachronism) posted.

                  If I choose to consider myself directly and personally insulted - and I do - there is nothing you can do or say that will make it any better. It was too late the instant you hit "Post".

                  If it's
                  Not your body
                  Then it's
                  Not your choice
                  AND it's
                  None of your damn business!

                  by TheOtherMaven on Thu Nov 24, 2011 at 06:24:14 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  no difference... but I am off topic, sorry (16+ / 1-)

        90% of Native Americans were also eradicated though most died fron disease. But the purposeful nature of each was the same. Even the author of the "Wizard of Oz" was calling for our genocide as a race of people.

        But you know what, I don't want to hijack your diary in any way. I agree with it and I should have brought this up elsewhere. It's a totally different subject and needs more room to explore.

        Back on topic I think we who demand justice for our elected leaders like Bush & co are diminished by association with racist and antisemitic fools. I also think the FP should clarify its stance.

        America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

        by cacamp on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 03:59:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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