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View Diary: Occupy DailyKos: Solutions Working Group (120 comments)

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  •  90% requires, in most cases, (5+ / 0-)

    a deeper understanding of everyone's needs and opinions. Achieving it also frequently addresses dissent; sometimes by revealing a flaw in the understanding or logic of the dissenter, assuming the dissenter acknowledges it, sometimes by causing the proposal to be tweaked to accomodate an inherently valued minority position.

    51% means that in almost all cases, a significant number of people do not support the decision. At least as important, in many cases sufficient discussion was not had, because it wasn't needed, for everyone to truly understand the decision.

    There is an underlying assumption that, given enough time and patience, a group can arrive at a decision with which at least 90% can live.

    The trick is striking a balance between the prinicple and practice of 90% and getting all the decision necessary made on a practical timescale, especially since there is a wide variance on how quickly decisions must, in fact, be made...

    •  Interesting. (0+ / 0-)

      Is this 90% threshold a requirement for adopting official policy, for example?  Or is this a requirement for doing anything, like say brining a meeting to order?

      •  90% is a requirement for chaos! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        johnny wurster, fou

        i think that the 90% number is so the anarchists can control the agenda - they represent about 11% of this movement and i'm betting they are worried about not being able to shut down any progress made.

        i, for one, don't want "10%" of the whole determining my life - how is that different from the "1%" controlling the money now?

        Is GlowNZ back yet?

        by edrie on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 11:52:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If chaos is large majority agreement, (0+ / 0-)

          you're right.

          It has its flaws, to be sure. But I personally wouldn't call any of them chaos. Disorganization, yes, because the methods prevent the making of the mass of decisions needed to get anything really large and complicated done; but I think disorganization is also largely a result of the "voluntary" basis of participation and the choice, on the left in general, to eschew rigid authoritarian rule and to tolerate differences of opinion.

          Personally, I think this form of decision-making is best for really large, important decisions, such as those that are existential to the group. For example, deciding whether or not the movement wants to formally include full Animal Rights as a fundamental demand. Or deciding whether or not a physical camp is an imperative. The smaller decisions, such as whether to serve pasta or beans and rice or print fliers on white or colored paper, should be made in smaller groups and, in some cases, by individuals. Not because a larger, longer discussion would necessarily be of benefit, but because it is simply impractical.

          Therefore, I personally hope that Occupy communities evolve by adapting to such a hybrid structure, where the G.A. is reserved for specific kinds of decisions involving far-ranging consequences, decisions deserving the wide gathering of input; extensive, public discussion of issues; open, active effort to understand and eliminate or resolve differences; publicly announce decisions of the G.A.

          •  you will NEVER get large majority agreement (0+ / 0-)

            on critical issues - the nuances are too important - so all you get is milquetoast decisions where it is easy to get the non-educated participants to agree (i don't  mean "formal" educated, i mean uninformed, ignorant, lazy, biased, limited, etc).

            people who bring pre-conceived ideas are not open to change.

            just look at the anarchist members of this group - i am especially thinking of the idiot/fool who blocked the civil rights leader from speaking because he COULD - and the alienation of a large population because of that stupidity.

            power is seductive - and when you place uncontrolled power into the wrong hands, you get abuses - that was an abuse and an embarrassment.  that was when i no longer wanted to be labelled as anything to do with ows.

            one act due to poor decision making - alienation of those who MIGHT have otherwise supported and joined in.


            cha·os  (ks)
            1. A condition or place of great disorder or confusion.
            2. A disorderly mass; a jumble: The desk was a chaos of papers and unopened letters.
            3. often Chaos The disordered state of unformed matter and infinite space supposed in some cosmogonic views to have existed before the ordered universe.
            4. Mathematics A dynamical system that has a sensitive dependence on its initial conditions.
            5. Obsolete An abyss; a chasm.

            pretty much sums up ows, don'cha think?

            Is GlowNZ back yet?

            by edrie on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 12:48:03 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Edrie (0+ / 0-)

              You have no idea about what happened in Atlanta, only what you read in the press and hear other people who were not and are not there have to say about it.

              John Lewis was not allowed to break in front of other people. He was blocked by a multiracial individual that was intent on following the process at the time. John Lewis had every opportunity to speak later in the evening or at another GA but he didn't choose to do so.

              OA has the support of all civil rights groups in ATL as well as

              Here is the truth: The Earth is round; Saddam Hussein did not attack us on 9/11; Elvis is dead; Obama was born in the United States; and the climate crisis is real. It is time to act. - Al Gore

              by Burned on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 02:14:47 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              • well as (0+ / 0-)

                many AA leaders in the city.
                I have no doubts that John Lewis also supports them.

                Here is the truth: The Earth is round; Saddam Hussein did not attack us on 9/11; Elvis is dead; Obama was born in the United States; and the climate crisis is real. It is time to act. - Al Gore

                by Burned on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 02:16:51 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  no, dear, i WATCHED the entire video (0+ / 0-)

                that was posted.  and from that, NOT anywritten account or account from any other person did i make my opinon.

                i based it on the disrespect and ignorance that was shown by the bearded twit who wanted to "show" who had the "power".

                how is that different from the so-called "1%" that the occupy rails against.

                lewis is NOT one of the 1%.  he had invaluable credence to lend to this nascient movement.  there were MANY in the crowd crying out "let him SPEAK!" - but one fool wanted to show how he could effect power.

                all he did was effect the opinion of those of us who watched and shook our heads in disbelief.

                Is GlowNZ back yet?

                by edrie on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 05:18:56 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  footnote: cameras are good to show the truth (0+ / 0-)

                  to dispell rumors - even those trying to be spread by the ones on the ows side, too!

                  cameras were there - cameras recorded - cameras show straighforward action by bearded fool and the response to him by many in the crowd who shouted "LET HIM SPEAK" - and the  obnoxious "non-leader" who allowed the "hard block".

                  what fools these (particular) mortals be.... (sorry, will, couldn't help but modify for this instance.)

                  Is GlowNZ back yet?

                  by edrie on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 05:40:02 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  John Lewis is and was free to speak in turn. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Lonely Texan

                    He was not denied.
                    He understood the process.
                    He did not come to speak, he was asked to speak, he could not wait. Yes, there were people upset, I was upset, but it did not deny John Lewis the right to speak.

                    Occupy Atlanta is currently occupying a homeless shelter that houses 6-700 homeless mostly AA against potential eviction. Occupy Atlanta has the support of the King Center, Rainbow Push, and many local AA and civil rights groups.

                    All of your huffing and puffing is based on watching one video. You were not there to see the talking afterwards, the outreach undertaken, the eventual calming of spirit between all participants, and the positive changes made because of this disagreement.

                    So please stfu about Atlanta and John Lewis. We have moved on to much more important business. The people's business.

                    Here is the truth: The Earth is round; Saddam Hussein did not attack us on 9/11; Elvis is dead; Obama was born in the United States; and the climate crisis is real. It is time to act. - Al Gore

                    by Burned on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 06:10:33 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  aha! THIS is your "new world" - you tell people (0+ / 0-)

                      to "stfu" if they don't agree with you?

                      this is why this movement is doomed to fail - it's either the borg or the highway, eh?

                      hive mind.

                      90% or nothing.

                      this is really pathetic in the attempt to stifle individualism and creative thinking.

                      please tell me how this is any different than orwell's 1984?

                      i keep seeing scenes from that movie every time i hear "MIC CHECK".

                      if you can't see that there are MAJOR problems within the formation and current structure of ows, then i feel sorry for you.  

                      ows is losing it's political capital and is losing it quickly.  and, that is the real pity here.

                      Is GlowNZ back yet?

                      by edrie on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 08:12:19 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You disassociated yourself (0+ / 0-)

                        with a vast national/even international movement because of one asshole in a video?

                        •  no, because of a whole LOT of people (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Lonely Texan

                          who were provoking and inciting...  and working to alienate a whole lot of people watching multiple videos.

                          there were many - the vast majority who weren't - and those i still support, especially the kids from davis.

                          so, don't assume anything about any one else's position - why not ask instead.

                          that is how to build movements.  ask - don't tell!

                          Is GlowNZ back yet?

                          by edrie on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 02:35:53 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

          •  anarcho-syndicalist commune (0+ / 0-)

            ARTHUR:  Please, please good people.  I am in haste.  Who lives
                  in that castle?
              WOMAN:  No one live there.
              ARTHUR:  Then who is your lord?
              WOMAN:  We don't have a lord.
              ARTHUR:  What?
              DENNIS:  I told you.  We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune.  We take
                  it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
              ARTHUR:  Yes.
              DENNIS:  But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified
                  at a special biweekly meeting.
              ARTHUR:  Yes, I see.
              DENNIS:  By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
              ARTHUR:  Be quiet!
              DENNIS:  --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
              ARTHUR:  Be quiet!  I order you to be quiet!
              WOMAN:  Order, eh -- who does he think he is?
              ARTHUR:  I am your king!
              WOMAN:  Well, I didn't vote for you.

            How many divisions does OWS have?

            by Diebold Hacker on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 10:17:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  In a General Assembly, the 90% test (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Vyan, 714day

        pretty much applies to everything, with the exception of bringing the meeting to order. As late as many of the meetings I have attended have started, it should be applied to that as well...

        What varies more, in my experience, is the making of decisions within the General Assembly vs. making them individually or in smaller groups, outside the perview of the G.A. Not the large decisions; they always go to the G.A. But medium to small decisions. For example, sometimes even small expenditures ($20) will be discussed at length by the G.A.; other times much larger expenditures ($100s) will be spent without any mention at the G.A...

    •  The trick is holding the votes in the cold, (0+ / 0-)

      next to the tents you've all been sleeping in, on the concrete, for the last few weeks. If it were easy, the RW trolls would have occupied Occupy long ago.

      In Congress, 60% threshold is unattainable, because there are always enough toadies to derail any initiative. Here, those same toadies would have to endure, Gasp!, physical hardship in order to ruin the proceedings. Ick.

      How many divisions does OWS have?

      by Diebold Hacker on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 09:23:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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