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View Diary: The Most Important News Story of the Day/Millennium (349 comments)

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  •  1st, 2nd, 3rd derivative (89+ / 0-)

    Wow, that's a stunning number.

    So, to stop the increase in atmospheric CO2 (ppm), it appears we have to:

    - Reduce the rate of increase in annual CO2 emissions (WTF?)

    - Then, reduce the absolute amount of CO2 emissions bvy turning that rate of increase negative

    - Finally, drive the absolute amount of CO2 emissions below the quantity that leaves that atmosphere

    That's a really big oil tanker to turn around in a short period of time before it hits the rocks.

    Thanks so much for your work day in and and day out.

    •  there appears to be only one sure way to do it. (66+ / 0-)

      And that's with a huge dieoff of human population.  Something larger than 50%.  

      A combined all-out nuclear war followed by a new disease pandemic might be sufficient.  Either by itself probably won't be.  

      The generalization here is: the longer we wait, the fewer the options remain, and the remaining options become uglier and uglier.  

      We could have put a stop to this with global zero population growth and conversion to non-carbon energy sources in the 1950s - 1960s.  (Bell Labs discovered the first evidence of anthropogenic climate change in the 1950s.)  ZPG could have been achieved at that point by "nice" measures such as cultural changes to support family planning and birth control.  

      Every decade we've waited, has cost us in terms of taking some of the "nicer" options off the table.  At this point there are no remaining "nice" options.  Ironically, the present economic circumstances where the plutocracy are doing their darndest to destroy the middle class, may be the "mild" end of the spectrum of things that reduce carbon output in the long run.  Isn't that a hoot?

      "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

      by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 07:11:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I just took my 1968 edition of the paperback (41+ / 0-)

        Sierra Club-Ballantine Book publication of Dr Paul Erlich's The Population Bomb: Population Control or Race to Oblivion off one of my bookshelves. We have had the time to do what was needed. We didn't heed the warnings. Just like the Easter Islanders chopping down the last tree as described by Jared Diamond in his remarkable book Collapse.

        Everything I've read this morning makes my despair deepen. Maybe I need to go over to ICanHazCheezburger......

        In any case, thanks for the post.

        Inspiration is hard to come by. You have to take it where you find it. --- Bob Dylan.

        by figbash on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 08:35:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  don't get depressed: get pissed, and resist! (11+ / 0-)

          Despair isn't what got humans through their previous evolutionary bottlenecks.

          You have to be willing to fight.  Roll up your sleeves and do whatever, just do something concrete and specific.

          If every one of us registers ten new voters, that will translate to a landslide victory next year.  And then we have to take to the streets and relentlessly clog up the arteries of business-as-usual, and force Congress and the President to deal with this.  

          And we have to ratchet up the pressure by inexorable "degrees" that symbolize the degrees Celsius of climate change (hell, use Fahrenheit, it allows more "degrees").  

          For example start the protests with "plus one degree," as nothing more than mass marches, all fully legal, no civil disobedience and no sit-ins.  

          At "plus two degrees," the protests become more angry and begin to become disruptive.

          At some point along the way, some "degree" of protest becomes ferociously disruptive: human waves that seek to truly shut down business-as-usual by occupying and clogging up whatever target and shutting it down.  

          Now +5 Celsius, and its equivalent in Fahrenheit, is expected to produce that "evolutionary bottleneck" and mass die-off.  So it's going to take some creative organizing to figure out what the corresponding "degree" of protest should entail.  But I'm sure someone around here will think of something.

          "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 10:18:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, I won't give up. (12+ / 0-)

            Not in my genes.  Today's just one of those days, you know?  Not all is well in the family at the moment.

            Inspiration is hard to come by. You have to take it where you find it. --- Bob Dylan.

            by figbash on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 10:24:33 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  The worst problem we have is that these (13+ / 0-)

            'low information' voters that have actually heard both sides of the story - will continue to consider Climate Change as a 'theory' until it actually has physical effects that they can mentally link the two together with.

            By the time that physical evidence of all of this is prevalent, it will be too late to do anything about it.

            An information war, or rather a dis-information war is very literally going to kill millions of human beings.  They would ignorantly spell doom for all of us.  If only we had two separate climate systems - one for us, and a different one for them.  But, we don't.  

            I think they really do want Armageddon.  We want a nice, clean, pleasant Earth to live on.  They believe more fiercely in a completely unprovable after-life, than they do in a scientifically proven set of facts about the one, single atmosphere we all share.

            #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

            by Evolutionary on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 11:32:35 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  yes, the other-worldly desire for hereafter. (5+ / 0-)

              Definition of a rational foe is one who is interested in material wellbeing in this world.

              Definition of an irrational foe, in fact a raving lunatic terrorist, is one who is more interested in the next world than in this world.  

              Al Qaeda & the Taliban, and the "Christian" Taliban in the US.

              Yes they really are that other-worldly.  

              Nutcases all, who should rightly be hauled off to padded cells before they cause any more damage.  

              "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

              by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 01:59:15 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I sometimes wonder if this would be a different (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                G2geek, ggwoman55, figbash

                country if all the mental health facilities weren't closed by Reagen.  I then wonder if most of the people running our country would probably have been institutionalized at some point.  Violent crazy people will do violent and crazy things if they aren't stopped.

                The question is, how do we stop them?

                #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

                by Evolutionary on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 02:32:38 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  except that personality disorders... (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Evolutionary, ggwoman55, LynChi, figbash

                  .... are an unrecognized pandemic, and sociopaths & narcissists who become "successful" tend to evade diagnosis.  

                  So yes, they should all be committed to inpatient treatment until there's a cure.  But even pre-Reagan, the worst of the worst would manage to slip through.

                  Our best chance for getting this dealt with is to stir up a mass buzz about personality disorders, similar to the pandemic parental paranoia over ASDs (autism spectrum disorders).  

                  "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                  by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 04:48:28 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I think that the low-info voters you reference... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Evolutionary, figbash

              ...will continue to think that climate change isn't real as long as it continues to snow somewhere anywhere.  They're a deeply uncurious people, so they're happy to actively remain stupid about climate change.  They enjoy the sense of superiority they feel when they look down on scientists.  They're still the same people they were when they were busy picking on "nerds" in high school; they think it's a sin or inhuman to be smart.

        •  Erlich- Hundred of millions will die of starvation (2+ / 0-)
          Early editions of The Population Bomb began with the statement:

              The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. At this late date nothing can prevent a substantial increase in the world death rate...

          Alarmist crap to sell books...  And, I would submit that the alarmist books and theories of the 60's and 70's has made the job of warning people of the seriousness of what we are facing today all that much harder.

          I don't argue for one minute that we would be much better off with a much smaller global population.  If there is some sort of tipping point for population, we are a helluva lot closer to it now than we were back then.  But sensationalist authors still haven't a clue.

          •  We strip-mined the future to save the present (8+ / 0-)

            All that "Green Revolution" stuff that allowed us to skate through the 70's without the threatened disasters - all of it was heavily technological and based on cheap fossil carbon power.

            And all of that allowed the population to keep exploding, and hastened the day when fossil fuels would be exhausted, and accelerated global warming.

            And what that means is that it won't be any mere "hundreds of millions" of people who starve. Try billions.

            Mundus vult decipi, decipiatur

            by TheOtherMaven on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 12:46:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  There are some nasty questions (8+ / 0-)

              If you look at population growth by continent it's clear that population has grown fastest in parts of the world where it will be most difficult to support it as the climate shifts. Between 1950 and 2010 in Europe and North America - where despite politics becoming increasingly dysfunctional we still have a fair chance of feeding ourselves in difficult times - the share the world's population has gone from 29% to 16%.

              On the one hand, we've released most of the carbon, so we owe the world. On the other, it's going to be very politically difficult to convince people who haven't had too many children that those elsewhere who for generations have had far more deserve to be saved from starvation.

              The reluctance of the Germans to save the Greek economy is but the slightest foreshadowing of the total lack of compassion that could easily overwhelm the world in the coming decades, if we aren't extraordinarily clever in crafting messages that can work against the strong urge to not help those who can be seen as having engaged in a moral wrong - the "lazy" Greeks who borrowed too much from German banks (never blame the banks!), or the "thoughtless" Africans who kept producing 12-child families even as modern medicine began allowing most of the children to survive. (One of my grandfathers was from a 12-child family; 6 didn't reach adulthood. They likely would today.)

              Yes, it's not the fault of the Africans. Yes, more education for women is key (since educated women choose to have smaller families, on the whole). But we're about to face an epidemic of blaming those who suffer for their own plight that will make the Republican betrayal of the American working class look like angelic ministration.

              Unless we can counter it with a stronger, more coherent message.

              •  Again and again, those most responsible (0+ / 0-)

                suffer the least.  We saw it in the bank bail outs, and we will see it in the effects of climate change.

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:34:12 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  If people would just sacrifice a little we could (7+ / 0-)

        make a dent. Turn the thermostats back this winter.

        "Nothing preserves Democracy better than the stupidity of its opponents" - KO

        by buckshot face on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 08:44:11 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sacrifice (5+ / 0-)

          i thought you were going to say
          If people would just sacrifice a little... Just their eldest child... that might bring the population down quickly enough to save the planet.  

          Okay, I admit I'm not in a cheerful mood these days.  

        •  would that it was that simple. (4+ / 0-)

          I'm ferocious about conservation, but the blunt fact is that it's going to take more than that to do the trick.  

          The longer we wait, the fewer the options left, and the worse they become.

          At some point it literally comes down to choosing who dies.  

          "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 02:02:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  If you're not part of the solution, you're part of (0+ / 0-)

            the problem.

            "Nothing preserves Democracy better than the stupidity of its opponents" - KO

            by buckshot face on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 02:57:09 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  dude, you don't know who you're talking to. (10+ / 0-)

              I live in rental housing (so far), so no rooftop solar for me (yet).  However:

              I built my own refrigeration system, dropping the yearly power consumption for refrigeration from 1,400 KWH/year (the energy-hog that came with the place) to approx. 450, a saving of about 950 KWH/year.

              I built my own graywater recycling system, laundry to toilet, reducing water consumption by 20%.

              With LED bulbs I got my electricity consumption down to 105 KWH/month, compared to an average of about 300 for an apartment dweller.  The cheap LED bulbs burned out in a matter of months, so it's back to compact fluorescents (until there are reliable affordable LED bulbs) and approx. 200 KWH/month, which is still 1/3 less than average for American apartment dwellers.

              My gasoline consumption is about 16 gallons per month, compared to an American average of about 13 gallons per week.

              My solid waste and recycling output are about 5 lbs. per week in total, compared to an American average of about 4-1/2 lbs. per day.

              Not only do I telecommute, but I also design telecommuter infrastructure.  I invented the feature for office telephone systems that enables companies as small as 3 people to have their incoming calls transferred automatically to remote employees' home office landlines or cellphones.  That feature is now available worldwide on the market-leading PBX platform in the small to medium business market (up to about 100 lines), and the 2nd or 3d place PBX platform in the market up to about 500 lines.

              If you work in an office, chances are that my feature exists in your telephone system.

              It enables telecommuting, which takes commuter cars off the road, and their CO2 emissions with them.  

              I've got a folder full of patentable eco-industrial technology dating back to the early 1980s in fields from appliances to waste management, some of which is "big heavy machinery", not just small stuff for the home.  (Find me the capital to get it all patented or don't complain.)

              So if I were you I'd stop shooting from the hip, or one of these days you're going to shoot yourself in the foot.  Like today.  

              "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

              by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 04:58:37 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  LED's for general purpose lighting... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                G2geek

                ...haven't made much sense as yet.  When I check the specs every year or two I find that the lumens output per kilowatt is the same as a CFL...well, unless you want a blue LED--color spectrum is part of the issue.  In addition the price of LED's is much higher.

                My experience with LED's is mixed, for lighting apps I've mostly I've found them overpriced and unreliable.

                Not that LED's don't have a place or can't make a large impact.  I'm finally ready to replace my 20+ year old CRT with a large LED TV which will use less power despite being much larger.  I've been waiting and waiting for this to become mainstream and for prices to drop.  

                And LED's for spot/directional lighting are much more efficient than a CFL because they require fewer lumens to do the job (and therefore much less energy.)  This is the area where I suspect you made the big gains, correct?

                For backpacking/camping/astronomy LED's are tremendous battery savers and much preferred by me over the other options.

                "Money is like manure. You have to spread it around or it smells." J. Paul Getty

                by Celtic Pugilist on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 11:54:37 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  How about in terms of production and (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  G2geek

                  pollution of the land fill.  It seems like LEDs would be a lot less polluting in those respects.  Also, what are the differences in life, is LED longer?

                  There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                  by AoT on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:40:21 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  LED's theoretically longer lived (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    G2geek

                    But in practice there have been a lot of teething problems for LED's at least these less expensive ones.  I don't know what the real lifetime is of the bigger, general-purpose LED replacements.  However, I've had a high percentage failure of LED nightlights and such, enough that I'm not even tempted to buy a much more complex LED bulb assembly at roughly 10x the cost of a CFL.  The LED's have a much longer potential lifetime, so eventually I expect winners to emerge.

                    I'm not an expert on the relative pollution track.  However, I'm not worried about CFL's in that regard since there is collection of them in big box stores.  I save the failed ones on a shelf until I have few, then take them in when I need some replacements...about once every 2 years.  

                    I've been using CFL's for about 7 years in various homes.  There are over 100 installed inside/outside my home at present, including in garage door openers and a range vent.  1 to 2 have failed per year for the past several years.  This year I had a spike of 4 failing--three of them in the 6-7 year old age range, one infant mortality in its first year.  

                    The standard GE CFL's I've used were crap though.  They had high infant mortality in the first year or two and I have very few of them left in "backwater" services.  They also are not instant on so I really detest them.  The enclosed CFL types (replacements for spots and globes) are also lousy because they are not instant on and take forever to warm up/come to full brightness.  However, I can't recall any of them failing yet, and a few get heavy use.  A big problem with the spot replacements is physical length, they project too far.  This is also true of the standard GE spiral CFL's.  That is one reason I use the Home Depot store brand for standard CFL's...that and because they are instant on and have typically been cheaper.

                    "Money is like manure. You have to spread it around or it smells." J. Paul Getty

                    by Celtic Pugilist on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 12:10:20 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  though, i'd suggest switching brands because.... (0+ / 0-)

                      .... the CEO of Home Despot is a rightwinger extremist, who was largely responsible for the downfall of Elliott Spitzer, who if he had remained if office, would have taken down some of the more egregious fraudsters on Wall Street.  

                      Whatever source Home Despot has for their branded bulbs, is almost certainly selling under other brands through other retailers, and it's worth looking for them elsewhere.  

                      "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                      by G2geek on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:36:07 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  HD's name isn't on the package, but model #'s (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        G2geek

                        ...haven't changed during this whole period.  The name has changed though.  Started as "Commercial Electric"  then went to n:Vision, now EcoSmart.  They seem to sell them as the house brand, not sure where else to find them, haven't seen them elsewhere.

                        There were some small changes to the form of the 100 W equivalents from the Commercial Electric since they had an issue with nearly melting when they failed (one of the dozen or so I have of the originals finally went out this way after 7 years.)

                        "Money is like manure. You have to spread it around or it smells." J. Paul Getty

                        by Celtic Pugilist on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 05:04:00 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                •  no, i was using LEDs for generic and task light. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Celtic Pugilist

                  Generic room lighting was reduced overall and task light was used in a few areas.  I don't believe in "decorative" lighting and similar applications.

                  Interesting point about lumens per watt.  That's an instant meme and a new metric added to my evaluation of light sources.  As it is I'm sticking with CFLs for the near term, though the discovery that they don't last as long as claimed when they are cycled for short periods, is a problem.  That would be the application for LEDs: short-cycle lights used when quickly entering and leaving a room.  

                  For emergencies and power failures, clearly any low-wattage light source preferably DC, is preferable; and I have a couple of LED flashlights and so on (but am generally underprepared in this area; in any case candles are viable in emergencies, provided that one is highly vigilant about fire safety issues).  

                  "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                  by G2geek on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:33:19 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I don't do decorative lighting either (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    G2geek

                    We have some exterior lights like that, but I probably don't turn them on more than a few hours in a whole year.

                    The lumens/watt measurement is one I've manually calculated to put things on an apples-to-apples basis.  The typical LED replacement uses a fraction as much power, but also puts out a fraction of the light.  This is terrific efficiency improvement if the location only needs that much, but not when it needs the original amount to illuminate an area.  The CFL range is typically more limited, but I have not really needed to go below the ~40 W equivalent (about 9W actual).  I use a mix of the 40, 60, and 100 W equivalents with some of the 250 W equivalents in the garage.

                    I replaced the chandeliers and most other fixtures in the house.  Part of it was to update (2nd owner), but the primary reason is that many of the old fixtures were stuck with candelabra bulbs, globe bulbs, or couldn't take an appropriate brightnesss CFL.  CFL globes are awful for baths because of low initial brightness/long warmup.  And CFL's in candelabras are too bulky, don't look right, and are too expensive--they just aren't good physical matches.

                    I modified the garage door openers to take CFL's.  The issue was that there was a cone shape for the neck of a regular bulb, while the base of most CFL's is broader and squarer.  So I took a dremel grinder head to the plastic housing.  Some folks warned me that the vibration of the opener would kill the CFL's, but it has been about two and a half years and I haven't lost one yet.  

                    I have lost two CFL bulbs so far in the range vent hood.  They were both older GE's that were never very reliable to begin with (and were taking longer and longer to turn on.)  The service is pretty rough and each has lasted about a year in that location (in addition to their previous services elsewhere.)

                    Enclosed fan light fixtures are tricky, but I've found the Sylvania micro-mini spiral CFL's can fit in the tightest applications, so I reserve these more expensive bulbs for that.

                    "Money is like manure. You have to spread it around or it smells." J. Paul Getty

                    by Celtic Pugilist on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 06:30:08 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  wow, pretty good! (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Celtic Pugilist

                      And extra credit for taking the Dremel tool and modding the fixtures in the garage door openers.  

                      If you own the house you can replace the fixtures that don't take standard bulbs.  Bathroom light/fans may need to have separate light fixtures installed alongside, and of course it also saves energy to not cycle the fan when it isn't needed to remove poopy smells or steam from the shower.

                      IMHO chandeliers, candelabras, and ceiling fixtures are silly: they take more time to clean, it's dangerous to have to climb ladders to replace bulbs, and the bulbs are nonstandard.  I'd get rid of all of that stuff and replace it with fixtures that use standard bulbs that can be replaced from a standing position.  One exception is the bathroom, where a light on the ceiling or above a mirror seems to be the only viable solution (lamps on cords are a hazard around water and in any case there's limited space for them).   That and the garage door opener, where the light needs to come on at the same time as the door goes up.  

                      "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                      by G2geek on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 06:57:03 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  We've got extra tall ceilings (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        G2geek

                        ...and open layout so the two chandeliers are needed for the spaces.  It's not the home I would have built, particularly because of the inefficient cathedral ceiling, but it has grown on me.  We don't use the largest one as much since usually a floor/table lamp and/or light from the adjacent space is sufficient.  I got a great dimmable double circular fluorescent torchiere for free when I bought bedroom furniture--I rave about that thing because it is perfect for what would otherwise be a dark corner in the living room.  Because of the torchiere I rarely need the chandelier.  Since I purchased chandeliers with CFL's in mind, I don't have to replace bulbs much--haven't had any go out yet in the big one after 3 years.  Replacing bulbs/cleaning will be easy compared to the time I spent 16 feet up on a ladder reworking the messed up box and hanging it.  I don't need to go nearly as high to work on the chandelier itself.

                        The other chandelier is over the dining room table and gets a lot of use.  I had to erect scaffolding to hang it because of the height and lack of nearby walls.  It is hanging from about 14 feet of chain as memory serves.  But the bulbs are just accessible standing from floor level.  After three years it burned out two bulbs in the past few months.  Both of the bulbs had already spent several years in two other homes.

                        I prefer a good overhead light fixture for rooms to provide even illumination.  A well designed two or three light fixture works well for me.  Ceiling fan lights, spots, and cans I don't care for.  Many of the ceiling fan lights are poorly designed with nearly opaque glass.  They just don't put out the lumens or do so very unevenly if they are spot style.

                        What I consider a good overhead fixture is one where the glass is near white and not quite transparent, so that it diffuses the light well, but doesn't reduce it too much or alter the hue greatly.  I shouldn't be able to see the bulb directly as that produces glare.

                        "Money is like manure. You have to spread it around or it smells." J. Paul Getty

                        by Celtic Pugilist on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 09:00:51 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

              •  Your exactly the example I was looking for. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                G2geek

                If everyone lived as you do we wouldn't need a government solution to every problem. The problem is people assume individual effort won't make a difference and expects the gov't to do the heavy lifting while they sacrifice nothing.

                "Nothing preserves Democracy better than the stupidity of its opponents" - KO

                by buckshot face on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 06:08:29 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not true, industry is a huge part (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  G2geek

                  of the problem, not just individuals.  Not to mention the huge amount of emissions from the agricultural industry.  The single biggest thing you can do to reduce your carbon foot print is to stop eating animal products, meat most of all.

                  There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                  by AoT on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:44:04 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Exactly. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    G2geek

                    "Nothing preserves Democracy better than the stupidity of its opponents" - KO

                    by buckshot face on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 10:29:16 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  and the way to reduce meat in the diet... (0+ / 0-)

                    ... is to provide recipes and food products that use little or no meat but that people will eat because they like them.  

                    For instance who could turn down a nice spaghetti dinner?  If the meat is reduced to a couple of small meatballs or a little meat in the sauce, nobody misses it and says they're "reducing their meat consumption," they say they're "having spaghetti."

                    From there to tomato sauce with chopped veggies instead of meat, is a short hop and relatively easily made.

                    How'bout stir-fried veggies with rice?  That's not "a vegetarian meal," it's "Chinese food," and everybody loves "Chinese food."

                    "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                    by G2geek on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:44:06 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  and/both (0+ / 0-)

                  Thanks, but the thing is, individual solutions need to be backed up by systemic solutions.  Starting with shutting down coal fired power plants and replacing them with non-carbon energy sources.  

                  And, there needs to be a significant cultural shift for any of this to catch on at the appropriate scale.  

                  Part of the value of individual solutions is in encouraging the cultural shift.  It starts with tech fixes that don't involve lifestyle changes, and then gets people onboard with the overall mindset, and then moves to encouraging lifestyle changes.  

                  "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                  by G2geek on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:39:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Well... (15+ / 0-)

        That population die-off would most like occur in areas that have a very small carbon footprint.

        The 'Free Market' will decide. It will decide that the United States cannot consume 25% of the world's resources and the upper 1% cannot control 50% of the wealth.

        by RichM on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 10:15:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  and then sooner or later.... (8+ / 0-)

          ... the high footprint areas will begin to die off as well, assuming that various tipping points have been exceeded.  

          There's no escaping this.  It's like a meteorite heading straight for Earth.  

          "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 10:19:28 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  but an invisible meteorite, (10+ / 0-)

            and therefore deniable. Even though we made it ourselves as a golden idol to our material greed.
            Like one's own mortality.
            we are not wired to respond with our big ol' cerebra to this type of threat, even if we intellectually accept the incontrovertible facts.
            we respond with our emotional centers, and pretend it isn't real.

            (I am typing this from a ski resort in Vermont that is on the verge of closing once again; it's not only not snowing, it hasn't even been cold enough to make snow. At elevation. In Vermont. In December.)

            Class war has consequences, and we are living them.

            by kamarvt on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 10:59:23 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  you know the irony of that, right? (5+ / 0-)

              Skiing is a fairly high-impact sport, especially downhill skiing.  The energy required to operate the lifts, the snowmaking and trail-grooming equipment, etc. etc.

              OTOH, high-impact sports aren't what's killing the planet.

              What's killing the planet is the daily grind of commuting by car and using electricity produced from fossil fuels.  The mundane stuff that huge masses of people do every single day.  

              "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

              by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 11:29:50 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  actually, we are pretty good in that regard (6+ / 0-)

                all sustainable sources for electricity, biodiesel in the groomers, an aggressive recycling program.....but a parking lot full of SUV's with NY plates.
                and we market ourselves overseas.

                Class war has consequences, and we are living them.

                by kamarvt on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 11:50:45 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  oh, well that's excellent. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kamarvt, LynChi

                  The fact that you're running the resort on as sustainable a basis as possible, resolves the impact issue for the sport itself.  

                  The SUVs are the problem of each of the people who drive them, though if they own hybrids and only rented the SUVs to drive to the resort with all their gear, that's not a killer-diller.  

                  As for airplanes, their passenger miles per gallon equivalent is somewhere near a Prius, so that's not a killer-diller either.

                  The thing that kills the planet is the mass behavior of millions who act "by default" and fail to make other choices, despite other choices being readily available.  

                  "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                  by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 01:56:11 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  It used to rain here in Sacramento every year (6+ / 0-)

              by September.  I haven't seen but a single day of light rain this year.  We have two seasons here - dry and wet.  So far, there hasn't been any 'wet' yet.  That isn't good.

              #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

              by Evolutionary on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 11:35:19 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oakland: similar. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Evolutionary, Creosote, AoT

                Not a whole lot of rain.  Been getting more that way every year.  Not good.  

                But the thing that makes it or breaks it for CA is the snow in the mountains.   When that starts going away, we are all well and truly screwed.

                "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 02:03:29 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, if it becomes too warm, that snowpack melts (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  G2geek, LynChi

                  early.  I've seen that happen too.  It creates flooding, and later, drought (no water storage).  We are very dependent on the 'normal' rate of snow melt water to feed the crops we grow that in turn - feed the nation.  Beef will soon become a scarce commodity.  Much of the nation's meat producers are in the Mid-West and South-West, where water is no longer falling from the sky.

                  I should really figure out how to grow soybeans, or any kind of beans really.  I can't really grow rice, but potatoes grow easily.  At least I am near a river.  Even if the water flow becomes limited and seasonal, I can store some water.

                  I wonder exactly how much water each person uses each year?

                  #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

                  by Evolutionary on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 02:29:14 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  household water consumption is a small part... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Evolutionary, LynChi

                    ... of the total.  Agriculture is the Big Thing.

                    Residential water consumption can be cut 20% with graywater recycling, and I have an invention toward that end, seeking capital to patent it and get it produced.  But even a 20% savings on the residential side will only be offset by population growth in California in a decade or at most two.  

                    Agriculture is the area where the serious gains have yet to be made.  Technology exists for this; Israel is the world-leader in the field and the most critical elements of that have probably gone off-patent and into the public domain.  The difficult part isn't the technology but the regulatory will to require using it.

                    "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                    by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 06:52:49 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yep. We will need plenty of regulations to put (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      G2geek, LynChi

                      corporations back where they belong - at the level of public utilities.  
                      And, good for you!  You are DOING something ;).  Every little bit helps eh?

                      #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

                      by Evolutionary on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 07:16:08 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  every finger in the leaking dike and a tsunami... (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Evolutionary, LynChi

                        ... approaches.

                        Sure, I'll conserve energy until someone pries my Kill-A-Watt meter out of my cold dead hands, but an entire lifetime of my efforts are nullified by someone, somewhere in the US, who decides his DNA is God's Gift to Mankind and engages in reckless reproduction.  

                        As long as population and consumption levels grow, conservation just makes it easier for them.

                        What's needed is the full-on complete paradigm shift.  The entire culture on a WW2 footing, damn the torpedoes, and damn the corporados.  

                        The value of all of our efforts in terms of conservation and so on, is when they go viral and spread, and when we succeed at bringing down the plutocracy with a cheer, like bringing down the statues of dictators in the public square.  And the metric for it is CO2 output per capita, measured individually through items such as energy and water consumption, waste output, and so on.  Arithmetic doesn't care about our feelings, and Ma Nature doesn't either.  

                        "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                        by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 08:15:20 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Yeah, it doesn't feel good when you do the right (0+ / 0-)

                          thing, and then see someone else do the wrong thing, effectively stopping your own good deed from having any effect.

                          BUT,  we should always try to keep our own side of the street clean :).

                          #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

                          by Evolutionary on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 08:36:44 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  one has to anyway, like not-looting after a storm. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Evolutionary

                            Regardless of whether everyone else is looting.  

                            However, passengers on a bus with a flaming drunk at the wheel had better do something quickly, because there's no alternative when he starts swerving around on the road.

                            "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                            by G2geek on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:26:20 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  You're in Oakland too? (0+ / 0-)

                  I was just talking with a friend about how weird the weather has been.  It rained into August this year and has hardly rained since.  There was about a week where we got some rain, but there should be more.  Maybe we'll have another warm January.

                  There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                  by AoT on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 08:46:03 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Even worse (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RichM, G2geek, B Amer, AoT

              It's a La Niña year - cooler waters upwelling in the Pacific mean the air masses crossing the continent are cooler than they would be in a non-La Niña year, leading to a "cold winter" on the North American continent.

              If this is the new version of a "cold winter," I dread the return of El Niño. I've only had to wear my coat 4 days this year, in December in Vermont. Sure, I like the less bulky apparel, and it's nice that I was able to dig a trench for electrical conduit in the frost-free ground without power equipment today, but for crying out loud, my son wore a t-shirt to school today!

              Did I mention we had mosquitoes over the weekend? Mosquitoes. WTF?!!

            •  Come to Colorado... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              G2geek, Paul Ferguson

              We are having a cold snap.

              The 'Free Market' will decide. It will decide that the United States cannot consume 25% of the world's resources and the upper 1% cannot control 50% of the wealth.

              by RichM on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 01:09:41 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  We are (4+ / 0-)

          if not the 1%, the 5% to the rest of the world. Even if you throw in Japan and W. Europe it's still only 12%.

      •  The Free Market Solution (6+ / 0-)

        The right wing die-hards will tell you the Free Market Solution is the most effective. And depending on your metrics, perhaps it is. What they don't tell you is the form the F.M.S. will take. They don't tell you, because the poor little dears do not really understand the implications.

        Don't fuck with the F.M.S. The F.M.S. is remorseless and entirely willing to kill.

        •  the FMS = five billion deaths. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          IowaBiologist, mightymouse

          Not three billion, not four billion, but five.  

          Another hundred Hitlers' worth.  

          (New measurement: One Hitler = ten million deaths.  100 Hitlers = 1 billion deaths.)  

          "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 02:06:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Don't mess with the F.M.S. (0+ / 0-)

          Very nice comment.  However, "Don't mess with the F.M.S.," would be more alliterative.

          FOX News: For entertainment purposes only. Not to be confused with actual news broadcasting.

          by IowaBiologist on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 02:54:42 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Nuclear war has the additional benefit (5+ / 0-)

        of the nuclear winter. Lots of dust.

        Best argument for a Gingrich Presidency I've heard yet!

        In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

        by blue aardvark on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 10:29:04 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I really, really don't want GinGrinch to have (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          G2geek

          access to the 'football'.  I was very worried that Caribou Barbie might end up with access to it.  McCain is liable to drop dead any minute.  Probably from a brain hemorrhage from being so angry all the time.

          #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

          by Evolutionary on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 11:38:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  The ultimate climate mitigation strategy? (5+ / 0-)

          Nuclear winter balances out global warming?  Is this the ultimate corporate scheme for addressing the problem that they publically claim doesn't exist?  Of course, it would be too bad that most of us wouldn't be around to enjoy the results.  In such a case, perhaps the richest few would imagine they could prevail through stealth and forward planning.  Yet it is likely that they, too, would be metaphorically, if not literally, butchered and eaten.

          FOX News: For entertainment purposes only. Not to be confused with actual news broadcasting.

          by IowaBiologist on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 12:02:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No it won't. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            G2geek, IowaBiologist, sockpuppet, JeffW
            Nuclear winter balances out global warming?
            The dust and soot would rain out in less than five years and warming would resume.  It might proceed at a slower pace because of the reduced population, but the amount of fossil carbon already in the atmosphere today means that there is a lot more warming to come, even if fossil fuel burning came to a dead stop right now.  
            In such a case, perhaps the richest few would imagine they could prevail through stealth and forward planning.  Yet it is likely that they, too, would be metaphorically, if not literally, butchered and eaten.
            Yep.  Their guards would quickly figure out that the 1% were just as edible as anyone else and no better armed.  

            Renewable energy brings national global security.      -6.25, -6.05

            by Calamity Jean on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 01:26:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Perhaps it could. (0+ / 0-)

              It might result in permanent cooling if nuclear winter left us with a brilliant, world-wide sheet of snow and ice that reflected most of the solar radiation back into space.

              Continuing bravely into the world of snark, even if this didn't happen after the first time, one might try something in analogy with the instructions on the shampoo bottle, "Lather. Rinse. Repeat."

              FOX News: For entertainment purposes only. Not to be confused with actual news broadcasting.

              by IowaBiologist on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 02:24:30 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't think it would get that cold in (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JeffW

                the time it took for the crud to fall out of the air.  I could be wrong, but I just can't imagine it.  

                ...even if this didn't happen after the first time, one might try something in analogy with the instructions on the shampoo bottle, "Lather. Rinse. Repeat."
                I don't think we'd have the technological ability to have two big nuclear wars.  

                Renewable energy brings national global security.      -6.25, -6.05

                by Calamity Jean on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 03:35:00 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Read Eaarth (McKibben) and Heat (Monbiot). (8+ / 0-)

        The places with growing populations probably do need to level off purely for their own sakes (i.e., for there to be enough food and water for future generations).  

        However, they are NOT the ones causing global warming.  And as important as global population is in terms of weathering our new Eaarth, I think it is a convenient distraction for us first-worlders from what we, our communities, and our governments, need to do right now.

        The U.S. birth rate is about at replacement level, and yet, we are among the worst malefactors in terms of destroying the ability of Bangladeshis to survive the coming decades -- and oh yeah, the Bangladeshi birth rate has dropped precipitously over the past couple decades, too.

      •  Japan has a low birth rate and China has tried to (5+ / 0-)

        … limit Han* births as a matter of government policy (while being roundly condemned by many in the West for doing so).

        * The Han family of ethnicities make up by far the largest part of China's population. Non-Han ethnicities ("national minorities") have always been officially exempt from the one-child policy.

        Some northern European countries also have low birth rates, a circumstance much decried by the nationalist Right ("we're being swamped by Arabs and Turks").

        Aside from that, though . . .

        48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

        by lotlizard on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 11:05:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  All developed East Asian (5+ / 0-)

          countries have a low birth rate, even Korea which is around 33% Christian. It's a combination of relative irreligosity, heavy social sanctions against out-of-wedlock childbirths, wide gender attitudes between men and women (to grossly overgeneralize, middle class Asian women think similarly as middle class Western women, whereas Asian men still expect a more traditional wife) and economic factors (income inequality, low government support of working mothers compared to Scandinavian countries, which makes it hard for women to choose both family and work). Faced with these social and economic obstacles, most middle class East Asians of today's generation tend to choose personal happiness and well-being over having children, although for most it's not a matter of not having children, as having children later, and then only having one child.

          "It is, it seems, politically impossible to organize expenditure on the scale necessary to prove my case -- except in war conditions."--JM Keynes, 1940

          by randomfacts on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 12:29:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Fundamentalist elements of all the major religions (10+ / 0-)

        are still dead-set against controlling human population. It's become a touchy subject since evangelicals entered the political arena.

        Thirty years ago we were able to talk openly about population control, although many Americans still thought it was a problem to be solved only in "poor" countries (not here). Now we have to argue about whether or not federal funds can be used to buy condoms to prevent AIDS.

        Population limits need to be discussed in public, but these days you never know if you're going to get flamed by a "Full Quiver" zealot or a libertarian who thinks "you have no right to tell me how many children I can have".

        So I try to frame it differently, by asking people to "imagine what life would be like today, if everyone's mother and grandmother had stopped after having two children."

        There were only 150 million people in America in 1950. Now we have over twice that many. Imagine two cars ahead of you at the stoplight instead of four. Ten families sharing the campground at the lake with you instead of twenty. Twenty students in a college classroom instead of forty. Four applicants for the job you want instead of eight.

        Of course it's not that simple, but it gets people thinking in terms of a living in a less crowded world. What a wonderful gift to bequeath to the next generation.

        I'm afraid that disaster/competition scenarios only trigger an atavistic impulse to "outbreed the other tribe".

        I have also put signs by the road that say" Slow down. Leave Some Oil in the Ground For Your Grandchildren". And... if a Christian really wants to defend her god-given right to have five children, I just raise the issue of "sinful pride".

        Have you noticed?
        Politicians who promise LESS government
        only deliver BAD government.

        by jjohnjj on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 11:17:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And they would outlaw birth control. Idiots. (5+ / 0-)

          #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

          by Evolutionary on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 12:10:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Even tho america generally has a low birth rate (4+ / 0-)

          American kids have a huge carbon footprint compared to kids in Africa and other less consumerist societies.

          Democrats promote the Common good. Republicans promote Corporate greed.

          by murasaki on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 01:28:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  nicely done. and what to do about "Full Quiver." (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          technomage

          Someone says they're in the Full Quiver movement, the proper response to that is, "Oh, as in, sex without sin?  A Full Quiver, a Loud Moan, and a Long Sigh?"

          "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 02:12:02 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  we could stop encouraging them (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            G2geek, too many people, LynChi

            by flooding TLC and other networks and their advertisers with complaints and turning them off. It doesn't help that these "educationally driven" outlets promote horrific stewardship (environmental, family, and otherwise) by airing crap like the Duggars "38 and counting" or whatever the hell it is now and all the plural marriage shows with their families of 4, 8, 12, ... 67 kids. Nobody is entitled to this many children, ever, even if you can support them without public or community assistance. I don't care what your so-called religion is.

            •  right on! with you all the way on that. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              technomage

              Bottom line is, in an overpopulated world, for a man and woman to decide they're going to breed like mice is nothing short of pure genetic selfishness:  ME ME ME, MY GENES, MY GENES, MY GENES!, as if their precious DNA is so damn important to the world at-large.

              I could go on a rip-tear about how we should require parenthood licenses and mandatory sterilization after 2 children and how much better it would be to have a one-child policy as China does, and all that stuff.   And of course I'd get slogged with donuts for saying any of that in enough detail to attract attention.  

              There are other ways to get at this, via tax policy (no more tax credits after the second kid, as if that pittance is worth anything more than a symbolic gesture), and I would also impose exponentially escalating taxes on exponential birth rate families, and so on.  

              Or we can sit back and watch the Titanic run into the iceberg, and listen to the nutjobs say it was the Jewish Conspiracy (TM) because Iceberg rhymes with Weissberg, and hope to scramble onto a lifeboat and get far enough away to not be sucked under when the whole thing sinks beneath the waves.  

              Or something.

              Either way, life in interesting times.

              "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

              by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 06:59:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Re Bell Labs and the fifties... (4+ / 0-)

        The then hypothesis of anthropogenic CO2 induced warming was  proposed by the 1820s, experimentally supported by bench-scale laboratory work a couple decades later, and accurately described mathematically by 1896, in work done to explain the ice ages.

        •  Hmmm ... 1820s is a stretch ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          G2geek

          True, Fourier proposed the idea of an atmospheric greenhouse effect, but as far as I'm aware he didn't suggest any anthropogenic change nor even identify carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas.

          But as you say, by 1896 Arrhenius had made those connections and laid the foundation for modern-day climate science.

          With all this manure around, there must be a pony in here somewhere. - Count Piotr Vorkosigan

          by jrooth on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 01:08:37 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  none the less, Bell Labs was getting findings... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jrooth, offgrid

            ... in the 1950s and going on at length about this.

            Bell Labs was also feverishly developing photovoltaic materials, to power long distance telephone relay towers in places such as the Rocky Mountains that did not have grid electric power.  

            I can't help but think that some of the people at Bell Labs made the connection between one and the other.

            "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 02:14:18 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  The best part of that is that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        "Let's have nuclear war followed by plague" fits on a bumper sticker!

        I keeeeed, I keeeeeed.

        Democrats must
        Earn the trust
        Of the 99% --
        That's our intent!

        "I love this goddamn country, and we're going to take it back." -- Saul Alinksy OCcupy!

        by Seneca Doane on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 02:32:09 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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