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  •  not in denial (5+ / 0-)

    in mid 20th century world given the tech and so forth, those energy sources made sense, in the 21st century they do not.

    What people need to understand is that these energy sources were last centuries, they need to go.  

    The problem is people act as if these energy sources are the ONLY ones, as if they have been with us for 4 thousand years, fact is, they have been here a hundred years, they help built this civilization for better or worse, but now its time to move on.

    It's this stupid idea that we need to hang on to 1950 energy tech that is the problem.

    Bad is never good until worse happens

    by dark daze on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 08:07:48 AM PST

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    •  you may not be, but most are. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Evolutionary

      Most folks are in denial (or in most cases, ignorance) about how dependent our world is on fossil fuels.

      It's this stupid idea that we need to hang on to 1950 energy tech that is the problem.

      Agreed, but the question is how to motivate them to understand that we need to move on.  My point is twofold: a) most people don't understand how much our economy depends upon oil and so peak oil can help the conservation pitch and b) many people who claim to care about conservation are in denial (or ignorance) about how much they really benefit from the way things are today.

      I mean, I bet more than 75% of the people at this site drive a car on a regular basis, just to pick an example at random.

      contraposition.org - thoughts on energy, the environment, and society.

      by barath on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 08:37:27 AM PST

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    •  Show me the ergs. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, Evolutionary, DSC on the Plateau

      There is a reason why the global economy relies upon fossil fuels. They are the only energy sources that exist in the mass quantity needed. Biofuel? There is not enough cropland in the world to produce the ergs. Fission? That can work for 50-100 years but only at the cost of "reburning" fissionables (something we donot do now) and that produces a lot of REALLY unwanted waste.

      Only solar (augmented with wind/geothermal/tidal/etc) or fusion can theoretically produce the ergs in the quantity needed. And solar, wind etc require massive mining efforts to extract the elements needed to manufacture the components.  Powering 7 billions on solar might prove to be a massive ecological disaster on its own. And failing that, there simply might not be enough lithium and rare earth elements on Earth to build all the panels and generators needed for such a system.

      Only fusion seems likely to provide the amount of energy needed to power modern lifestyles.  Unfortunately, fusion brings with it an engineering problem or two. And it is nowhere near likely to become available in time.

      That leaves us with the old technology answer to environmental pollution: boom and bust massive die-offs.

      You couldn't pay me enough to move to San Antonio.

      •  It is so ironic that the areas of the US with the (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Quicklund, DSC on the Plateau

        most damage from Climate Change so far, are the same areas with majorities of people that don't believe it.  They don't believe what is right in front of their face.
        How much more pain is it going to take?

        I also, would never consider moving to Texas.  I might have 30 years ago, but now it looks like a disaster area, and it isn't getting better.

        #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

        by Evolutionary on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 01:07:23 PM PST

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      •  Fission is a better alternative than you think (0+ / 0-)

        Uranium can be produced from seawater at reasonable cost.

        Of course the problem of waste disposal is a difficult one, and I agree the best long term prospect is fusion.

        There may already be trends in place that will prevent us from getting there. When population pressure collides with dwindling fossil fuel and the Greenland and antarctic ices sheets start melting, I shudder to think what the world will be like. I will escape it, but you young folks may be in for a really bad time.

        Occupy is the symptom. Fundamental reform is the cure.

        by Tim DeLaney on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 10:27:02 AM PST

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      •  START BY (0+ / 0-)

        conserving, american waste more than we use.  Tell me why every car on our highways isnt at least 50mpg?  The amount of energy saved right there is massive.  We have had the tech to have 50mpg cars for many many decades.

        We dont need nearly the amount we produce.

        Bad is never good until worse happens

        by dark daze on Tue Dec 06, 2011 at 03:21:47 PM PST

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