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  •  The chasm between (0+ / 0-)

    immediate, urgent self-defense, as in the example, and pre-meditated violence is stunningly wide.  I believe that pre-mediated violence against people or property is not only wrong but very counter-productive, it simply provides a lever for the elite to justify crushing violence in return.  They just live for that chance, they wait salivating for any excuse to unload on dissent.

    I believe that advocating violence is a violation of dKos community norms.  On this question, so far I'm outvoted by 3 to either 0 or 1 (1 if I count my vote).  I'll be interested in how it stacks up.

    •  Given that we have been working on this issue (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      for what, thirty years now?  If there is ever a time to discuss this it is now.  Simply saying that property damage is off the table unless you are immediately threatened is the easy way out.  There are a huge number of people around the world who are immediately threatened, would you be ok with them damaging the source of that threat or should they just rely on the kindness of the rich and they powerful?

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 10:32:47 AM PST

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      •  Beyond the fact that as a (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        James Wells, aliasalias, mightymouse

        Christian I can't tolerate violence, it always seems unwise to me to choose the weapons your opponents have in abundance. Our experiments in nonviolence around keystone, and the instinctive nonviolence of occupy, seem to me far more threatening to the powers that be

        •  As I said above (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not advocating we just start breaking things.  I think it would be necessary to exhaust all other options first.  I would prefer to see a physical blockade of the pipeline if the efforts so far fail.  I understand that a lot of people have a problem with breaking things even if those things threaten their lives, mainly because the threat is so abstract.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 01:32:15 PM PST

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    •  consider a bioterrorist. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, Evolutionary, Calamity Jean

      He runs around spreading a plague that takes a week to make someone sick and has a 50% chance of killing them.

      It's going to take a week before anyone gets sick.

      Does that make it less urgent to stop the bioterrorist now?

      How'bout if it was a month?  You get infected today but you don't keel over and die for a month.   Less urgent?

      And hey, you only have a 50% chance of dying from it.  Does that make it less urgent to catch that bioterrorist now?  

      How'bout catching the 9/11 plotters when they first came to the US, armed with their plans to fly planes into buildings?  Was it urgent to catch them in Spring of 2001?  Was it urgent to catch them in early summer?  Mid summer?  

      Or does it not become "urgent" until they've already killed a flight attendant at the rear of the plane and they're trying to get into the cockpit?  

      We already know what history has to say about Bush's immortal line to his CIA briefer over the summer, when the CIA was sounding the fire alarm that Al Qaeda was plotting something huge:  "OK, you've covered your ass."  

      What do you think history is going to say about us if we just tootle along as one tipping point after another is crossed, while fossil fuel executives have their way and the political process remains stalemated?  

      What's your proposal?

      "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

      by G2geek on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 11:17:46 AM PST

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