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View Diary: They aren't solving the European Debt Crisis (71 comments)

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  •  Kudos to Cameron for the Veto (6+ / 0-)

    Brussels has gone power-mad.  A bunch of overpaid Eurocrats who believe that they know more than the voters of member countries.

    Sarkozy wanted the UK to cede its fiscal sovereignty.  Of course Cameron had to decline.  In fact, had he acquiesced, he should have been immediately impeached.

    What is it with all these EuroCrats who believe that the citizens of Greece and Germany want to cease being citizens of those countries, and instead be subjects of The United States of Europe?  Is there a poll which indicates that Greeks want German to be the official language of what is today Greece?  Or would the "catch" language be French, and Germans would have to learn that in school?

    Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project.

    by PatriciaVa on Fri Dec 09, 2011 at 06:49:07 AM PST

    •  Oh please. Cameron's veto sprang directily (15+ / 0-)

      from protecting his banker buddies in the The City. He was all in on whatever deal they wanted to do as long it didn't include a charge on financial transactions for banks. Call Me Dave Cameron was completely bullied by his Eurosceptic back benchers.

      "I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth." --- Bill Hicks

      by voroki on Fri Dec 09, 2011 at 06:59:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So, you're a EuroPhile? (4+ / 0-)

        Do EuroPhiles support the violation of sovereignty that took place in Greece and Italy, where Brussels, in concert with Merkel and Sarkozy, managed to appoint two Viceroys?

        Do you support the fact that Spain and Italy, were they to remain part of this misbegotten Eurozone, will grow, at most 1% CAGR over the next decade, subjecting the Spanish and Italian to a fate worse than the US depression in the 30s.

        Why can't EuroPhiles accept the possibility that the EuroZone is a flawed concept, and that the citizens of the continent of Europe are better off with their own currencies?

        Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project.

        by PatriciaVa on Fri Dec 09, 2011 at 07:05:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm simply pointing out (13+ / 0-)

          that trying to paint what Cameron did as some principled stand against Europe is a complete fucking joke. If that makes me a Europhile than so be it.

          "I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth." --- Bill Hicks

          by voroki on Fri Dec 09, 2011 at 07:14:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Oh and by the way, if this was about a violation (16+ / 0-)

          of sovereignty then why did Dave and other members of his party help Germany and France to push Greece and Italy to take these awful deals? I live in the U.K. Dave and Co were all over the news talking about how Greece and Italy must take these deals for the good of everyone in Europe.

          "I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth." --- Bill Hicks

          by voroki on Fri Dec 09, 2011 at 07:24:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Simple (4+ / 0-)

            Because the logic of the single currency is the need for an eventual fiscal union. The whole purpose of the EMU process was to harmonise the important factors like government spending deficits and debt to below levels set  out in Maastrict. Countries had to meet and stick to those criteria in order to enter the single currency. Not only were figures for countries like Greece falsified, there were no measures in place to properly monitor budgets  or provide sanctions for breaching the rules. Jacques Delors in an interviews this month admitted that this was a big error and that he had strongly advised that there should be such mechanisms before the Euro was introduced.


            Fight poverty, oppression, hunger, ignorance, disease and aggression wherever they occur.

            by Lib Dem FoP on Fri Dec 09, 2011 at 08:15:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And this explains the big 3 in Europe essentially (6+ / 0-)

              pushing and pushing and pushing  for the Italians to get rid of Berlesconi in what way?  The bond markets, the ratings agencies, france, germany, and the u.k. all decided Berlesconi should go and put huge pressure on the italians.  Sure, he was on the edge anyway but alot of non-italian entities, including the UK were happy to push him over the edge. Play it however you want. Call me Dave has talked out of both sides of his mouth regarding Europe for the past several month (sovereignty for me but not for thee essentially).

              "I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth." --- Bill Hicks

              by voroki on Fri Dec 09, 2011 at 08:26:06 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  national sovereignty...such a 20th century concept (8+ / 0-)

              The European Bankers aren't solving the debt crisis, they are solving the perceived democracy crisis.  The UK was right from the beginning when they opted not to adopt the Euro.  I wouldn't be to pleased if I were a citizen of Portugal or Spain or Ireland and a clique of foreign bankers had veto power over my own government's budgetary priorities.  

              Rompuy is suggesting that the major players in the EU can bypass any pesky national referenda on the treaty changes or subsequent budget edicts by using something called "Protocol 12" to simply do an end run around the treaty members' respective parliaments.  

              The proposed changes don't sound very copacetic to me from what I can glean from the press accounts.

              "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild

              by Keith930 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 at 01:52:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Picture 17 people in a lifeboat on fire. (8+ / 0-)

              The German won't let go of the fire extinguisher unless the others promise not to have furnaces in their homes.

              The big problem with the Maastricht Agreement is that it forbids the Euro Zone nations from practicing Keynesian economic policies, and doesn't authorize the EU to do so. Seeing how they have not repealed the business cycle, it amounts to forcing member nations to suffer through recessions without being able to do anything.

              The fraudulent bookkeeping by the Greeks was bad, but that does not justify the Germans cutting off the nose to spite the face.

              Greg McKendry, Linda Kraeger, Dr. George Tiller, Steven Johns. Victims of Wingnut violence

              by Judge Moonbox on Fri Dec 09, 2011 at 06:43:47 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Because Cameron isn't interested in sovereignty (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PatriciaVa, happymisanthropy

            as a general proposition, or in Italian sovereignty either. He's interested in British sovereignty, as he should be.

            This is our time. We can do this. We can change the world.

            by Simian on Fri Dec 09, 2011 at 02:18:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Right. It's a bit sick (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            voroki, gerald 1969, Cartoon Messiah

            when the most famous Euro-skeptic in the world, the UK, takes to issuing advice about the Euro. As Sarkozy more or less said: England, STFU!

    •  I don't care why he did it. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PatriciaVa, beltane

      He did the right thing and that's what matters. The rest is for moral philosophers.

      But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

      by Rich in PA on Fri Dec 09, 2011 at 07:10:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  My take is that he did the right thing (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wilderness voice, bink, Odysseus

        for the wrong reason but that it was still the right thing. People are making this out to be the conservative Brits against socialist Europe but the reality is that all the major countries in the EU are governed by right-wing austerians dedicated to bleeding their people dry in order to keep the big banks fat and happy.

        When corporations become people, the people become slaves

        by beltane on Fri Dec 09, 2011 at 07:42:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I Care Why (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        He thinks, "I'm already in a lifeboat. Why get back aboard the Titantic?"

        He's right, in a way.

        Continental leaders are determined to sink the ship and take their countries down with them. It's a really peculiar thing, but apparently they can't figure out how to do anything else -- except the precisely wrong solutions to their problems.

        But Britain is not in a lifeboat.

        Cameron's government has made HUGE mistakes and he's unable politically to back out of them.

        Plus, the economic fate of the UK is tied to the continent. When that Titanic goes down, Britain will be pulled into the whirlpool that follows.

        And so will we to some degree.

        Still, Cameron was right to laugh this one off. It just didn't make sense in any way for him to climb aboard a sinking ship.

        "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

        by bink on Sat Dec 10, 2011 at 09:52:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  There are people (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theano, Karl Rover, Cliss, gerald 1969, DBunn

      who think the EU should be a confederacy (an alliance against others), others who think it should be a federation (accepting of integration).

      In the U.S. federation won out.  Confederationists always conflate integration with tyranny, historically.  Federationists see the anarchism, coercion, and classism of confederacy.

      English is the EU's lingua franca as is, but you don't see this as oppression for some reason.  But if German were to be that, now that would be oppression in your eyes.  Bigotry is only what other people want/do, obviously.

    •  What Will Happen Eventually (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Karl Rover, Cliss

      is a "United States of Europe" and no Britain will never join.  Britain will increasingly align itself more with the USA as the European Union gradually becomes its own powerful economic and political unit/bloc.

      •  US of Europe? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dave925, Cliss, Odysseus

        I do not see this happen as the cultural differences have grown in Europe over millennia and those differences can be pretty destructive to grand designs of state building. On the other hand the economic focus will shift towards Eastern Europe. It is telling that Poland is siding with Germany and France against the UK.

        Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again. Karl Popper

        by hanswall on Fri Dec 09, 2011 at 05:25:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  You should ask (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DBunn, Odysseus

        some younger Britons about that.  It's the Thatcher era people and the corporate honchos and financial "industry" profiteers who hate the EU with a horrible jealousy and fear of EU financial transparency laws- but are parasitic on it.

        The EU already is "its own powerful economic and political unit/bloc".  But it is greatly absorbed with its own internal development and maturation, containing as many historically poor and historically oppressed and backwards and recently fractious peoples as it does.

        If you don't count the UK, the EU does have one major foreign opponent: Russia.  Which it has a complicated frenemy relationship with.  It will assimilate the UK in a decade or two.  It may well ultimately assimilate Russia once Russia sheds its Asian empire and its civil life improves once the ex-Communists are gone and oil revenue no longer exists to corrupt all.  EU strategists don't expect Russia to become a reasonable fit until the 2030s or 2040s at earliest.

    •  Well, I don't think the voters (5+ / 0-)

      are any kind of savior. They are just as ignorant as the folks in Brussels. They have a failure of demand in the EU economy. They have historically cheap money. Instead of reflating the economy, they are freaked out about debt. Newsflash: there is no debt problem; it's a demand problem and a money supply problem. Print more Euros. A lot more.

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