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View Diary: Obama on the Economy: 'We Didn't Know How Bad It Was' (300 comments)

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  •  I don't think admitting mistakes is a bad thing. (6+ / 0-)

    I think Obama doesn't mean it -- it's a "sorry if someone was offended" moment.

    If he meant it, he'd be seeking advice from the people who were right about what was going to happen, such as Krugman.  And he won't, because his admission of "error" was transparently self-serving.

    The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

    "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

    by Punditus Maximus on Wed Dec 14, 2011 at 07:14:22 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Well, this is still something of a democracy (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sunbro, Fireshadow

      i also think "listen to" can cover both "listening to and acting on," "listening to and not acting on for independent reasons," or "listenijg to and disagreeing with.". Krugman's not exactly a lonely voice in the wilderness.  I suspect Obama already knew what the temperature was in congress for a big ass sitimulus, so i think choice 2 is the best bet.

      "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

      by Loge on Wed Dec 14, 2011 at 08:13:24 PM PST

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      •  Loge (0+ / 0-)

        You're fricken great, my friend.  I'm so sick of the naysayers, all the time talking about how Obama could have done this or that, and saying that he hasn't done nearly anything correctly.

        More power to you, Loge.  Thank you very much for telling the other side of the story here at dKos.  Seriously.

        -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

        by sunbro on Wed Dec 14, 2011 at 09:52:27 PM PST

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        •  Yeah, we shouldn't be questioning our leaders (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dfarrah, magnetics, wsexson

          or complaining when we can't find work or lose our houses.  Stupid American pony-wanters, trying to stay middle class.  Shouldn't they know better?

          The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

          "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

          by Punditus Maximus on Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 07:39:17 AM PST

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          •  All I see you doing (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Fireshadow

            is bagging on President Obama, when the real assholes are the Republicans and DINOs in Congress, so yeah, it pisses me off.

            Why don't you rail against the real culprits?

            But, Noooooooooooooo...it's Obama I see you talking about here always...it's just bullshit.

            -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

            by sunbro on Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 07:55:51 AM PST

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            •  Have you considered reading (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              magnetics

              my sig?  Every post, every time, I treat conservatives with the contempt they deserve, hon.

              The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

              "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

              by Punditus Maximus on Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 08:13:11 AM PST

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              •  When I see your (0+ / 0-)

                name on a post, I always am asking myself, "Is this post the same old tune?  Will he bash Obama or the Rethugs?"

                And constantly, I see yet again that it is Obama you choose to focus your ire on.  Your focus is exactly what Herman Cain said he wanted:  

                Don't protest Wall Street.  Protest the White House.  

                I'm sure that Herman Cain would be happy to see that you have taken his suggestion, as it seems that 99% of your criticisms are aimed at Obama.

                -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

                by sunbro on Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 12:51:27 PM PST

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          •  there's not a virtue in (0+ / 0-)

            questioning leaders if it's done on the basis of a false dichotomy.  that's just being wrong.  

            "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

            by Loge on Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 08:24:31 AM PST

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      •  The problem is that that explanation (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Robobagpiper

        is totally inconsistent with Obama's repeated references to the deficit and balancing our books.

        At that point, the stimulus was bounded by Obama's ideology.

        The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

        "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

        by Punditus Maximus on Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 07:38:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  only if you can't do two things at once (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Geekesque

          one of the selling points of econ stimulus is that, over the medium term, it pays for itself.  how often do we see posts noting rightly that growth is the best way to cut the deficit.

          i agree the stimulus reflected Obama's ideology, but the choice between $800 odd billion and $1.2 trillion isn't ideological.  your argument that it is is completely circular (the stimulus was too small because of ideology?  how do i know his ideology?  the stimulus was too small).  there are other examples, but the overall structure is the same, so a circular argument about, say, health care, added to a circular argument about stimulus, isn't corroboration.

          in any event, the mea culpas here aren't about the size of stimulus, but rather the internal assumptions about growth given the known size of the stimulus.  perhaps had congress and the president both had the information about what Q4 2008 numbers were revised down to, it might have been different, but the overall political argument would likely be the same, just with different numbers.  we'd be sitting here complaining about a $1.2 trillion and not a $1.8 trillion stimulus instead, about 7% unemployment versus 9% unemployment.  Better, to be sure, but resting largely on an untested assumption.  we might say with some degree of confidence that had Obama known in advance of the revised Q4 figures he might have asked for more, based on these statements.  but we can't say the same about the senators who largely dictated the size of the stimulus before the details of the proposal hit the floor.  

          "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

          by Loge on Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 08:22:43 AM PST

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          •  No. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dfarrah
            your argument that it is is completely circular (the stimulus was too small because of ideology?  how do i know his ideology?  the stimulus was too small).

            My argument is that I know his ideology from his focus on the deficit starting in 2010, and his refusal to prosecute the banksters.  That's why I said "deficit," and "banksters" when describing how I know his ideology.

            My logic, for those playing at home:

            1) The stimulus was too small.

            2) Obama did not correct his course once it became clear that the stimulus was too small

            3) Not only did Obama not correct his course, but he stated whipping out stupid supply-side tropes about the confidence fairy in 2010.  In addition, he refused (and still refuses) to try to fix the rampant and grossly illegal fraud in the financial sector.

            4) So I believe that the reason (2) happened after (1) happened, was because of the ideology implied by (3).

            Again, if you're not interested in what I'm saying, but rather defeating a strawman, that's fine.  But don't bother to engage, then, just have a happy sense in your own head that the strawman is down, and you won't have to be contradicted.

            The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

            "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

            by Punditus Maximus on Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 08:33:26 AM PST

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            •  The more I think about this, (0+ / 0-)

              the more it seems like the prototypical Obama supporter's conversation.  It is unpossible that Obama engaged in the gross policy failures implied by not prosecuting banksters or focusing on the deficit for a year during 9% unemployment.

              So, to an Obama supporter, it just didn't happen.  And any argument based on Obama doing these things is assigned to a random other statement.  Because the eyes just slide over this incontrovertible evidence of Obama's neoliberal economics.

              The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

              "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

              by Punditus Maximus on Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 08:47:46 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  now, THAT is how to build and attack a strawman (0+ / 0-)

                well done.

                "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                by Loge on Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 08:51:44 AM PST

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              •  Methings yer verbage, Punkus Maxiumus, is just (0+ / 0-)

                a smokescreen for your inability to reconcile the inconsistencies in your arguments. Circular logic does not support your premise (Obama= bad cuz I say so). Circular logic is a cat chasing his own tail. Circular logic is you stating artificial facts (Obama knew how bad it was) that you project onto Obama even though all the charts and graphs said he didn't know. Maybe WE knew here, but really we could only suspect the severity of the crash, as the data was minimized (under Prez Bush... gee how could that have happened?). You are basically making shit up to enforce your ideological view that if Obama did it, it must be bad.... oh and your little sig caveat " but Republicans are real bad".  I'm not buying it.

                Use this for our causes! "Goodbye American Dream" music: http://tinyurl.com/3hhtuyo lyrics: http://tinyurl.com/3jm7g2k

                by Fireshadow on Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 11:31:20 AM PST

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                •  This is exactly what I was referring to. (0+ / 0-)

                  Because the idea that Obama focused on the deficit for a year during 9% unemployment is simply not possible, my arguments which are based on this incontrovertible fact are now based on me just asserting things.

                  Denial is a hell of a drug, seriously.  The more I interact with Obama's supporters, the more clear I am on how terrible a leader he actually is.

                  The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                  "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                  by Punditus Maximus on Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 01:49:46 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  i think when you say (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Fireshadow

              "logic implied by (3)," the notion that your reasoning is circular isn't quite the strawman you imagine it to be.  instead, you're doubling down on circular logic and confirmation bias.  

              "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

              by Loge on Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 08:50:16 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

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