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View Diary: Keystone Cave? No, Keystone Kabuki. (195 comments)

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  •  The only way climate change (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ozsea1, divineorder

    will be addressed is once fossil fuels run out.

    Until then, the damage should be mitigated via a stiff carbon tax, which can be used to undertake a series of stopgap measures to keep society functioning . . . .

    •  Um, once the fossil fuels run out (1+ / 0-)

      we are pretty much fucked.

      R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
      October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

      by SwedishJewfish on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 10:46:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not really, the world is awash in (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ozsea1, divineorder

        energy - there's just no political will to use sensible forms

        But if there is no other option, we will.

        •  No, I'm saying we are "fucked" in terms (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          aliasalias, wonmug, RLMiller

          of climate change.

          The tarsands are the 2nd largest source of fossil fuels in the world. That's why the idea of tapping its reserves is so problematic. In the words of climate scientist Jim Hansen it would be "game over" for global climate change-there would be no turning back.

          That's why anything that results in the delay of extracting all of the tar sands is a good thing.

          R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
          October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

          by SwedishJewfish on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 10:53:57 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Delaying the inevitable . . . (0+ / 0-)
          •  The tar sands are much less that 1% (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ozsea1

            of fossil fuel use now - and might eventually get up to 2 or 3%.

            Coal is way worse, and expanding rapidly.  I'm not sure why the tarsands are treated so vehemently while MTR coal mining is more or less ignored - hypocrisy, perhaps.  To me, one of the Obama administration's more egregious acts was fast tracking 42 of 48 MTR coal permits upon taking action.

            But in any event, essentially, a labor shortage is what is slowing tar sand extraction - not really anything more or less than that.

            as the NYT points out, there's not much else stopping it.  If the demand is there, humans will use this resource.

            As a stopgap measure, there already are railway links to the coast that the oil will be shipped on while the pipelines are being built (there already is a pipeline in place, btw).  

            •  I know a pipeline is in place (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ozsea1, divineorder, RLMiller

              but this one would be bigger, and it would go straight to Texas. Also it would have crossed over the ogallala aquifer-a spill or a leak would be catastrophic.

              I agree with you regarding coal being an even bigger threat. Lisa Jackson has been pretty effective at shutting a lot of the MTR operations down. But we have a long, long way to go there as well.

              R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
              October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

              by SwedishJewfish on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 11:29:38 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  labor shortage? Canada has brought in workers (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              divineorder

              because the people of Canada are so opposed to the devestation few will work in the pit.

              without the ants the rainforest dies

              by aliasalias on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 12:28:24 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, that's not it at all (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                divineorder

                It's more like life in northern Alberta totally sucks and no one wants to go there . . . combined with the fact that there simply are few people in Canada with the necessary skills.

                In the past, people from Atlantic Canada were happy to work in the Oil Industry, but they're having a bit of a boom themselves and a labor shortage of their own  (as explained in the link, which is from the local media) which is putting further stress on the worker situation.

                A few years back, McDonalds and Timothy Hortons were closing at 7 PM in Alberta because of the shortage of (even unskilled!) workers - and gawd knows nobody hates those fine companies!

        •  Also, I think you are incorrect (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          divineorder

          as people see the increase in extreme weather, as their own lives are personally touched by climate-change related events, and as the evidence becomes indisputable that this is going to have a horrendous impact on the quality of life of their own children, we will find the political will.

          R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
          October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

          by SwedishJewfish on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 10:57:31 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Extreme weather HAS increased (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ozsea1, divineorder

            over the past decade while the number of people who "believe" in global climate change has decreased substantially.

            Bottom line, people are stupider than you'd like to believe . . .

            •  This is entirely possible (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RLMiller, aliasalias, divineorder
              people are stupider than you'd like to believe

              But, I also think we have reached a tipping point, and the propaganda is not going to be as effective anymore.

              R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
              October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

              by SwedishJewfish on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 11:21:49 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  They're coming back (4+ / 0-)
              over the past decade while the number of people who "believe" in global climate change has decreased substantially

              Recent polls show more support for climate science:

              But since then, the number [of Americans who say climate change is happening] has climbed back up, though not to the fall 2008 levels. About half of the distance, about seven points until May of this year [2011], we found that 64 percent of Americans said that climate change is happening. link

              and the Sept. 2011 Stanford/Ipsos poll

              Our survey shows that more Americans today believe that global warming is occurring
              compared to just a year ago. However, at the same time, the skeptics have become more
              certain in their beliefs that global warming is not happening.
              o The recent Reuters/Stanford/Ipsos poll finds a significant increase in the number of
              Americans who believe the earth has been warming (from 75% in 2010 to 83%
              now) in the last year. Currently, 83% of all adults say that global warming has
              been happening while only 15% say they believe that it has not been happening.
              § While attitudes on this issue differ between Democrats and Republicans, the
              divide is not as great as the political debate might imply: Two-thirds
              (66%) of Republicans believe global warming has been happening, as do
              91% of Democrats. Thus, even a majority of Republicans express this
              view.
              § The percentage of Americans who are extremely or very certain that
              warming has been happening has also climbed, from 48% to 53%.
              § However, people who do not believe in global warming have become more
              resolute in their attitude (people extremely or very certain rose from 35%
              in 2010 to 53% in 2011).
              o A large majority (72%) of the country believes that if warming has been happening,
              it has been caused either partly (45%) or mostly (27%) by things people have
              been doing. 27% believe warming to be mostly the result of natural causes.

              As the world warms, the reigning ideology that tells us it’s everyone for themselves, that victims deserve their fate, that we can master nature, will take us to a very cold place indeed - Naomi Klein

              by mightymouse on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 11:54:48 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  We will hit the CO2 levels needed to raise (5+ / 0-)

      temperatures above 4 degrees C which will make areas of the world uninhabital far sooner than we will run out of fossil fuels.  

    •  someone got up on the wrong side of the bed (0+ / 0-)

      As the world warms, the reigning ideology that tells us it’s everyone for themselves, that victims deserve their fate, that we can master nature, will take us to a very cold place indeed - Naomi Klein

      by mightymouse on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 11:43:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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