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View Diary: Keystone Cave? No, Keystone Kabuki. (195 comments)

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  •  Not really, the world is awash in (2+ / 0-)
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    ozsea1, divineorder

    energy - there's just no political will to use sensible forms

    But if there is no other option, we will.

    •  No, I'm saying we are "fucked" in terms (3+ / 0-)
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      aliasalias, wonmug, RLMiller

      of climate change.

      The tarsands are the 2nd largest source of fossil fuels in the world. That's why the idea of tapping its reserves is so problematic. In the words of climate scientist Jim Hansen it would be "game over" for global climate change-there would be no turning back.

      That's why anything that results in the delay of extracting all of the tar sands is a good thing.

      R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
      October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

      by SwedishJewfish on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 10:53:57 AM PST

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      •  Delaying the inevitable . . . (0+ / 0-)
      •  The tar sands are much less that 1% (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        of fossil fuel use now - and might eventually get up to 2 or 3%.

        Coal is way worse, and expanding rapidly.  I'm not sure why the tarsands are treated so vehemently while MTR coal mining is more or less ignored - hypocrisy, perhaps.  To me, one of the Obama administration's more egregious acts was fast tracking 42 of 48 MTR coal permits upon taking action.

        But in any event, essentially, a labor shortage is what is slowing tar sand extraction - not really anything more or less than that.

        as the NYT points out, there's not much else stopping it.  If the demand is there, humans will use this resource.

        As a stopgap measure, there already are railway links to the coast that the oil will be shipped on while the pipelines are being built (there already is a pipeline in place, btw).  

        •  I know a pipeline is in place (3+ / 0-)
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          ozsea1, divineorder, RLMiller

          but this one would be bigger, and it would go straight to Texas. Also it would have crossed over the ogallala aquifer-a spill or a leak would be catastrophic.

          I agree with you regarding coal being an even bigger threat. Lisa Jackson has been pretty effective at shutting a lot of the MTR operations down. But we have a long, long way to go there as well.

          R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
          October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

          by SwedishJewfish on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 11:29:38 AM PST

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        •  labor shortage? Canada has brought in workers (1+ / 0-)
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          because the people of Canada are so opposed to the devestation few will work in the pit.

          without the ants the rainforest dies

          by aliasalias on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 12:28:24 PM PST

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          •  No, that's not it at all (1+ / 0-)
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            It's more like life in northern Alberta totally sucks and no one wants to go there . . . combined with the fact that there simply are few people in Canada with the necessary skills.

            In the past, people from Atlantic Canada were happy to work in the Oil Industry, but they're having a bit of a boom themselves and a labor shortage of their own  (as explained in the link, which is from the local media) which is putting further stress on the worker situation.

            A few years back, McDonalds and Timothy Hortons were closing at 7 PM in Alberta because of the shortage of (even unskilled!) workers - and gawd knows nobody hates those fine companies!

    •  Also, I think you are incorrect (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      as people see the increase in extreme weather, as their own lives are personally touched by climate-change related events, and as the evidence becomes indisputable that this is going to have a horrendous impact on the quality of life of their own children, we will find the political will.

      R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
      October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

      by SwedishJewfish on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 10:57:31 AM PST

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      •  Extreme weather HAS increased (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ozsea1, divineorder

        over the past decade while the number of people who "believe" in global climate change has decreased substantially.

        Bottom line, people are stupider than you'd like to believe . . .

        •  This is entirely possible (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RLMiller, aliasalias, divineorder
          people are stupider than you'd like to believe

          But, I also think we have reached a tipping point, and the propaganda is not going to be as effective anymore.

          R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
          October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

          by SwedishJewfish on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 11:21:49 AM PST

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        •  They're coming back (4+ / 0-)
          over the past decade while the number of people who "believe" in global climate change has decreased substantially

          Recent polls show more support for climate science:

          But since then, the number [of Americans who say climate change is happening] has climbed back up, though not to the fall 2008 levels. About half of the distance, about seven points until May of this year [2011], we found that 64 percent of Americans said that climate change is happening. link

          and the Sept. 2011 Stanford/Ipsos poll

          Our survey shows that more Americans today believe that global warming is occurring
          compared to just a year ago. However, at the same time, the skeptics have become more
          certain in their beliefs that global warming is not happening.
          o The recent Reuters/Stanford/Ipsos poll finds a significant increase in the number of
          Americans who believe the earth has been warming (from 75% in 2010 to 83%
          now) in the last year. Currently, 83% of all adults say that global warming has
          been happening while only 15% say they believe that it has not been happening.
          § While attitudes on this issue differ between Democrats and Republicans, the
          divide is not as great as the political debate might imply: Two-thirds
          (66%) of Republicans believe global warming has been happening, as do
          91% of Democrats. Thus, even a majority of Republicans express this
          § The percentage of Americans who are extremely or very certain that
          warming has been happening has also climbed, from 48% to 53%.
          § However, people who do not believe in global warming have become more
          resolute in their attitude (people extremely or very certain rose from 35%
          in 2010 to 53% in 2011).
          o A large majority (72%) of the country believes that if warming has been happening,
          it has been caused either partly (45%) or mostly (27%) by things people have
          been doing. 27% believe warming to be mostly the result of natural causes.

          As the world warms, the reigning ideology that tells us it’s everyone for themselves, that victims deserve their fate, that we can master nature, will take us to a very cold place indeed - Naomi Klein

          by mightymouse on Sat Dec 17, 2011 at 11:54:48 AM PST

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