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  •  But that is understandable. (9+ / 0-)

    Gravity is immediately and easily observable. Climate change is not. Humans have a poor ability to take longer-term threats seriously. We have evolved to deal with the near future and the now. If something is seen to be a remote future event, it is discounted or ignored. That may be, of course, our undoing as a species, but there it is.

    •  An understanding that the planet can't sustain (18+ / 0-)

      unlimited population growth is at the heart or our survival.

      If cats could blog, they wouldn't

      by crystal eyes on Fri Jan 20, 2012 at 08:14:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Population growth stabilizes, and even declines... (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wu ming, Liberaltarian, hooper, Matt Z, Dianna

        ...when the disruptive effects of monopoly corporate fascist imperialism are mitigated with health care, education, economic justice...


        So, yeah, excessive population growth is definitely a problem, in many areas, and it doesn't help, but it's NOT a root issue.

        And essentially racist sterilization (since the worst population growth is in societies severely traumatized by imperialism, who are primarily peoples of color), or further murderous economic deprivation and war, are not "solutions" we are willing to countenance.

        Not that you have explicitly called for, nor even intentionally implied that we need moar sterilization, economic oppression and war...but just saying, there are extremely negative implications to a contrived "overpopulation" meme.

        Only justice and peace will save the planet, which requires democracy.

        Bring the Better Democrats!

        All Out for November!

        Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle.

        by Radical def on Fri Jan 20, 2012 at 08:53:11 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Study this graph and it is clear (12+ / 0-)

          That our current world population growth rate is unsustainable.

          How we control population is a choice but the finite limitation of our population numbers is not.

          If cats could blog, they wouldn't

          by crystal eyes on Fri Jan 20, 2012 at 09:36:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  This does not refute my position... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            ...that the real problem is Not population growth, so much as the dictatorship of monopoly corporate fascism, which is the principle Cause of the cultural and social disruptions and degradations that Cause excessive population growth.

            Please note, on your own graph, that the steep climb in population growth does, in fact, directly coincide with the rampant "development" of monopoly capitalism, ushered in by the industrial era , heh.


            Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle.

            by Radical def on Fri Jan 20, 2012 at 10:18:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Highest growth rates (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AmericanAnt, mrkvica, fhcec, Naniboujou

          in the world are seen in those areas where the presence of corporations is pretty rare. China is hardly a model of democracy but it has dramatically changed its demographic profile. India has not. And, even in India, it's the rural areas under the control of essentially feudal landlords - not "corporate fascists" - where birth rates are highest. In cities, bastions of corporatism - birthrates are much lower. I think you might want to revise your theory a little.

          •  Clearly, any country you may cite... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            has been subject to considerable social and cultural disruption by imperialism, at some point, heh.

            While some pockets of population, including cities, may "stabilize" somewhat, as a result of corporate presence, this is usually accompanied, and indeed, made possible, by huge surrounding regions of extreme poverty, displacement, and ruthless exploitation of millions of people, and, "excessive" population growth.

            Usually, even within the cities, there are also huge pockets of mostly displaced rural people, who are kept in abject poverty, as virtual slaves, and That sub-populations' growth also tends to spiral out of control, unless subject to draconian measures.

            This phenomenon is a natural instinctual tendency, it would seem, among all species.  When subject to extremely harsh conditions that threaten very survival, larger "families" ensue, to make up for those offspring that will likely die.

            While similar conditions have arisen throughout human history, under feudalism and monarchy, the "efficiencies" of industrial capitalism as we now know it, have ratcheted that up to extraordinary proportions.

            Look, I'm not disagreeing about whether present population explosions are sustainable...just saying, that's not really the problem, nor the solution.

            Meanwhile, by all means, we can and should introduce health care and education around birth control...but unless we actually address the root contradictions that are actually really causing the problem, it will only be subject to get even worse, despite, and even as a "result" of those efforts.

            As to how democratic China really is, I think that's a deep subject, to which I will only go so far as to say, everything is relative, in terms of materially serving the public interest.

            For example, they do NOT allow Faux "News" to invade and swamp them with seditious propaganda and cultural perversion and bribery, lol...which I think is a Good thing.

            Have they, and do they continue, to make errors, and to engage in some draconian practices, perhaps even completely unfathomable to us here, in the US (especially given the framing of monopoly corporate fascist commercial mass media, lol) doubt.

            But as I say, everything is more or less relative...

            Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle.

            by Radical def on Fri Jan 20, 2012 at 12:18:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sure but lack of these things (0+ / 0-)

              is not some big corporate plot. The USSR was pretty awful at providing the basic necessities; so is North Korea. I know this might be difficult but is there a specific example that you know of where a corporation actively tried to prevent someone from in a high birthrate area from getting healthcare? Or anything else for that matter? I mean, apart from benign neglect.

              One of the world's wealthiest corporate heads (Bill Gates) has devoted most of his fortune to helping the world's poor escape the depredations of malaria, AIDS and other diseases. Warren Buffet just gave his foundation $42 billion. That corporate toady, Bill Clinton, has worked long and hard to solve the problem of endemic, grinding poverty in Africa and Haiti. I am no big fan of corporations but I think it is all too easy to put the blame on them. So I have some actual evidence on my side; what about you? I am sure you do;I'd just like to see it.

              •  I'll readily acknowledge... (0+ / 0-)

                that some elements of the Bourgeoisie are more or less willing to pay back, to help mitigate the conditions that have made them so rich, and even to help, or not oppose, more viable democracy to emerge.

                However, they are the rare exceptions, it seems to me, while others tend to merely seek tax write-offs and self-agrandizement, while most couldn't give a flying fk, except in the negative, in terms of actually being hostile to the needs and desires of the general population.

                You mention Russia and Korea, as not doing so well, heh.

                I would just point out that for them, China, Viet Nam, Cuba, and others, being invaded, encircled, embargoed and cut off from trade, technology and credit, and constantly subjected not only to threats of military attack, but also covert invasion by agents provocateur bribing sedition and sabotage, propagandizing Faux "News" style misinformation, etc. etc., forcing them into a defensive martial law regime for their very survival, for 50 years...those are not exactly conditions conducive to optimal social, economic and political development, ya know?

                Of course the US likes point to the horrible conditions WE have imposed upon them, including even starvation, as "proof" that they are "failures"...and yet they have survived, built themselves up, and lifted themselves by their own bootstraps, yes, at great human cost, to become competitive world powers, which is pretty awesome, when you think about how hard the US has tried to destroy them, and failing that, to cripple them as much as possible.

                You mention benign neglect, as if it were somehow a lesser evil...but when a company goes into a defenseless third world country and loots it's national resources, in exchange for a few well-placed bribes to a few local warlords, because that's so much cheaper and more convenient than paying fair prices and taxes to a popular democratic government, to go toward roads, schools, hospitals, etc...that's not really so benign.  

                It's not like they are stupid.  They know what effect their "business" dealings are having on those countries. Indeed, they will either invade, or mount an astroturf local "revolution" to overthrow any popular democratic leader who refuses the bribes and insists on asserting national control of their resources, to provide services to their own citizens.

                When that results in protracted civil war, it's all the less benign, and all the more malignant, and it happens all too systematically, all throughout our history, right up to the present day.

                Nothing is absolute, everything is relative.

                I think we could conduct ourselves in a much more principled manner with much stricter regulation of corporations, both at home and abroad, to ensure they are working in the public interest, and are not working against the public interest, which should be subject to periodic review, potential revocation of their corporate charter, seizing of their assets, and prosecution for crimes against humanity.

                Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle.

                by Radical def on Fri Jan 20, 2012 at 08:34:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  That's another one of those things (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        marina, crystal eyes, boophus

        that humans are not good at dealing with. In fact, it's even worse than the climate issue. You take a thing like having kids - good, right? - and try to convince people it's a long-term danger, and you are bound to run into trouble. Far-sighted leadership that doesn't depend on asking people's opinion - China - has been able to effect demographic change on a large scale. Hands up everyone who wants Chinese-style leadership.

        But the interesting thing is that humans aren't really much different from any other life-form from E-coli to rats. Resource availability is permissive for growth. Restrict resources, growth declines and populations decline. We fool ourselves that, because we have this big cortex, that we can beat nature.

    •  Yes, I'd say (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      crystal eyes

      this is exactly the kind of problem than human nature is terrible at solving.

      "YOPP!" --Horton Hears a Who

      by Reepicheep on Fri Jan 20, 2012 at 02:34:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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