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View Diary: Megaupload Take-Down, Copyright and IP, and Why SOPA / PIPA Are Still Bad Law (25 comments)

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  •  ok... here it comes (0+ / 0-)

    His analysis here:

    the very power they feared the most in that bill — the power of the U.S. Government to seize and shut down websites based solely on accusations, with no trial — is a power the U.S. Government already possesses

    Tells me that he doesn't even know the purpose of SOPA or PIPA. Yes, they already possess this power when the perpetrators are residents/citizens of existing treaties that allow it. If Kim Dotcom was in a non-treaty country, they had no recourse - so Glenn is talking out of his ass.

    More absurdity here:

    the U.S. Justice Department not only indicted the owners of one of the world’s largest websites, the file-sharing site Megaupload, but also seized and shut down that site, and also seized or froze millions of dollars of its assets — all based on the unproved accusations, set forth in an indictment, that the site deliberately aided copyright infringement.

    Just as in cases where the government arrests someone for a drug case, money laundering, investment fraud, etc etc. They ALWAYS seize assets that they later have to prove were the fruits of the crime they are charging the defendant with. It is common sense because non-seizure would allow the defendant to use those resources for his/her defense or to hide them away. In the case that the government cannot prove guilt... all of those assets will be returned. Since you claim that Glenn Greenwald is a "constitutional expert", he should already know this and it has nothing to do with "unrestrained government power".

    This cute little anecdote is a logical fallacy as noted:

    Congratulations, citizens, on your cute little “democracy” victory in denying us the power to shut down websites without a trial: we’re now going to shut down one of your most popular websites without a trial.

    If someone steals your car and it is later discovered at a chop shop, wouldn't you want the police to recover your car and close the chop shop? Should the criminal be continued to operate a chop shop just because it's a front that also services customers vehicles in a legal manner?

    This assumption that websites shouldn't be closed during the indictment process is ridiculous on it's face and the people who are claiming that these actions somehow violate someones right to due process is stupid. The government hasn't taken permanent possession of megaupload.com yet... it is being held as evidence, essentially. They do the same thing for any business that has been used to facilitate a crime.

    He continues his logical fallacy and adds a heap of hyperbole:

    Whatever else is true, those issues should be decided upon a full trial in a court of law, not by government decree. Especially when it comes to Draconian government punishments — destroying businesses, shutting down websites, imprisoning people for life, assassinating them — what distinguishes a tyrannical society from a free one is whether the government is first required to prove guilt in a fair, adversarial proceeding.

    As I explained above, due process is given to Kim Dotcom and his conspirators. If they are proven innocent... their property will be returned and they will have civil remedies at their disposal.

    Now, your NDAA rant is another example of this same failed logic. The "indefinite detention" applies to people who are determined to be a substantial threat to the security of the nation because they have demonstrated the desire to use, contributed to the use of or have executed the use of military force against the US. The rights and protections of the constitution DO NOT APPLY to military personnel and never have.

    •  How is he talking out his ass... (0+ / 0-)

      you have not contradicted what he said here:

      the very power they feared the most in that bill — the power of the U.S. Government to seize and shut down websites based solely on accusations, with no trial — is a power the U.S. Government already possesses

      He did not say they had this power in every country which is what you appear to be implying.

      People arrested for drug use are often victims in the same way.  They get their property taken away without trial as you mentioned... this is also wrong.  Not something to hold up as a good argument, unless you are arguing the justice dept. is doing the right thing when they go straight to punishment before trial by taking people's homes away from them for growing pot.  In your weak chop shop analogy, a stolen car is a very different thing. It is very easy to immediately determine the legal owner of a car... takes about 5 minutes.

      Now, your NDAA rant is another example of this same failed logic. The "indefinite detention" applies to people who are determined to be a substantial threat to the security of the nation because they have demonstrated the desire to use, contributed to the use of or have executed the use of military force against the US. The rights and protections of the constitution DO NOT APPLY to military personnel and never have.

      Determined by whom? Who says they are military personnel? But really, even if there was transparency as to who was doing the determining, this is obviously unconstitutional and un-American to boot.

      It sounds like you enjoy authoritarian rule.  Good for you.  We are well on our way.  Enjoy.

      John

      •  It has been this way for decades (0+ / 0-)

        you are only now realizing it, I guess.

        The disconnect is a basic understanding of criminal law.

        •  It has been getting worse for decades and your (0+ / 0-)

          guy is part of the problem.  And yes, he used to be my guy too, but I got off the fucked up Obama train a while ago... about the time I realized he was a wall street stooge and a war monger who doesn't give a shit about due process or fundamental fairness.

          John

          •  I live in reality (0+ / 0-)

            it seems that you live in a utopian fantasy world.

            •  Wow, you are good, I have never come up against (0+ / 0-)

              such a brilliant debater.  Your shit got knocked over like a house of cards, and your comeback is straight out of grade school... albeit with much more flowery phrases.  I'm very impressed.  Let me give it a try... neener-neener .... well shit, I'm just not as good at it as you are.  Carry on!

              John

              •  The funny thing (0+ / 0-)

                that I have found is that people like you, who base their "debate" on ideology over reality, are never able to understand a different point of view than their own.

                It is the same problem that Republicans have.
                It is the same problem that Creationists have.
                It is the same problem that Pro-Lifers have.
                etc, etc, etc

                •  Perfect, and par for the course! (0+ / 0-)

                  Don't have the facts, so you equate me with folks we both can't stand.  People like me?  Funny.

                  I base my debate on facts that are inconvenient for those who are still Obama supporters. A few years ago many of these same folks were vehemently against the same policies he is now neck deep in.  Must be tough ignoring the facts about your hero... but not nearly as tough as the harsh reality of his betrayal... at least for all decent thinking people who find actual policy more important than pathetic partisan politics.

                  John

                  •  facts (0+ / 0-)

                    President Obama has done what he can do while dealing with an intransigent Congress... did you miss that part maybe?

                    •  No, I did not miss that part. (0+ / 0-)

                      Did congress make him expand the drone wars, murder US citizens, and surround himself with wall street pirates?  Did they make him split up more immigrant families than Bush ever did?  Did they make him continue the stupid war on drugs? Blaming the obviously ignorant and evil republicans for Obama's extremes is lazy.

                      And by the way, your original comment of "Fuck Greenwald" suggests that perhaps you do not realize he is in a committed relationship and would probably not be interested in you in any case....

                      John

                      •  Again... (0+ / 0-)

                        Your ideology is the degree of separation.

                        Expanding the drone attacks means that Al Qaeda has been decimated.

                        You say "murder"... I say that Alwaki  joined the enemy and was an enemy combatant who contributed to military force against the US and it's allies in a WAR - even if the war is of a different type than previously engaged.

                        If you are here illegally... you take the risk of being deported.

                        He never claimed he would end the war on drugs and that is not a part of the Democratic Party platform.

                        •  No expanding drone attacks means (0+ / 0-)

                          more innocent lives destroyed, including women and children, and more recruits for anti-American forces.  Alwaki was never convicted much less tried for anything.  His 16 year old son was murdered shortly after he was along with a young friend.  This is not justice, it is murder and terrorism.

                          The way you can figure this out is by changing the names of the players.  Canada wants to kill suspected terrorists inside the US and ends up killing your neighbors by accident.  Are you for that?

                          The deportation of thousands separates children from the their parents.  Were they guilty of crossing an imaginary line in the earth too?  You would make a fine republican with your  lack of empathy for the innocent and all.  But don't worry, you do not have to change parties.  The democratic party is going your way.

                          John

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