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View Diary: Joe Paterno 1926-2012 (177 comments)

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  •  Wow. (11+ / 0-)

    No accountability for anyone, ever.

    Paterno knew.  He was too assiduous about the coverup not to have known.

    The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

    "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

    by Punditus Maximus on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 08:44:32 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  That is an epic strawman (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DaveinBremerton, alyosha

      and i said he should have lost his job.  I do have the quaint notion that guilt has to be individual and backed by provable facts.  Sandusky hasnt even been convicted yet, but when he is, accountability.  There is no legal basis for holding paterno criminall accountable, but he should have some punishment, and a humiliating firing was it.

      "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

      by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 08:49:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And he wasnt assidious, he was lazy nt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alyosha

      "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

      by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 08:58:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Different means, same end result. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        psilocynic, i like bbq, timewarp

        Again - I really don't think you want to offer this up to Sandusky's victims.

        "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

        by IndieGuy on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 09:12:06 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  for all i know, they're reading now (0+ / 0-)

          or some of them.  The severity of the crime does not lower the burden of proof for backing up factual claims is what i'd say to them.  i'd say to them, if Paterno knew, and that were proven, i'd be open to changing my mind, but that isn't the case.  And I'd say he still did a lot of good with his life to go with the bad.

          You don't get to claim the mantle of the victims to rebut a point that is largely about getting one's facts straight.  That's tantamount to saying the victims are just as irrational as you.

          "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

          by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 09:24:38 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  But that's just it. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            timewarp, ginmar

            The facts are pretty clear.  If you see what Paterno immediately did to restrict Sandusky's access to kids, you understand that he was fully aware, and took the action that he viewed as appropriate.  

            The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

            "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

            by Punditus Maximus on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 09:49:50 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm thinking it's time you took a long breath. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Loge

            I've got no emotional irons in this fire.  You seem to have a few.  I disagree with your approach, but I apologize for getting you riled up.  That wasn't my intent.  (Seriously - I usually don't run from a fight.  In fact, I generally rush headlong into one.  It's just that I'm not looking for one right now.)

            Cheers!

            "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

            by IndieGuy on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 10:00:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Loge has this thing (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              i like bbq, IndieGuy, ginmar

              where if you want to hold people in positions of authority accountable for their decisions, you are "irrational."  The act of wanting it is the irrational part, and to him, the conversation is over as soon as you assert that responsibility flows both ways.  It's a longstanding difference of opinion between him and me.

              The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

              "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

              by Punditus Maximus on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 10:38:33 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh fuck off (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BrooklynJohnny

                The only difference is you like to make things up about Obama (and others) and then make this accountability point as a shield.  You arent accountable for your own misstatements and hyperbole.  

                Especially here, where i agreed with firing him.  But i dont think as a factual matter Bin Bin's claim was accurate and i dont think it's right to make that point so aggressively and one sidedly when he just passed.  Paterno happened to do a lot of good.  Sorry that doesnt fit your binary worldview.

                "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 10:47:23 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Nice. (0+ / 0-)

                  Loge, if there's one thing I never "like" to do, it's "make up" things about anyone.  That's why I get the HRs, because I refuse to make up the facts necessary to continue to pretend Obama isn't responsible for his own fate.

                  And that's my point -- that when a person in a position of authority makes a bad decision, I'm not willing to blame it on anyone else.

                  Paterno covered for a kidtoucher.  It is, in fact, utterly awful when people do that, and Paterno was rightly dismissed.  We never get the whole facts on events like these, and the stuff we do know is utterly awful.

                  Sandusky appears to have been an effective coach and mentor.  But guess what!  That doesn't really matter.  Because he was a kidtoucher, and it's vital that we as a society change our attitude toward kidtouchers and the people who cover for them.  The RCC, Arpaio, the community surrounding Penn State . . . relentless enabling of the kidtouching.

                  Joe Paterno had the opportunity to be a moral man, to swim against that current.  He declined.  That's who Joe Paterno was.  In a situation where he could have cleaned house and created some kind of justice for Sandusky's many victims, he made sure the culture of silence prevailed.

                  The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                  "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                  by Punditus Maximus on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 05:15:38 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  i hope that if you're ever in Paterno's position, (0+ / 0-)

                    you handle it better than he did.  We'd all like to think we would.

                    I suppose the fact that much of my argument is that he "didn't" actually "cover for a kid toucher" means you miss the mark.  If I believed he did, I'd up the accountability meter.  I have no problem firing him, and if one of the victims sues and recovers against his estate, more power to them. But you're not just blaming Paterno for what he did or didn't do.  There's no need to get into other, side issues here, but you opened that little can of worms by suggesting I'm against the concept of accountability, when in reality I think it has to be both fact-based and proportionate.  

                    This is my own speculation, but I think while the Catholic Church did knowingly cover up because it believed that the work of priests mattered more than the harm to kids, Paterno just didn't want to know.  I can't get in his head, but as such, I'm not going to assume his motives were the same as Cardinal Law's.  I suppose reasonable people can disagree about whether the church's work is good, and reasonable people can disagree about the value of a football program, it's just objectively the case that part of who Joe Paterno was was someone who made immense services to Penn State, which is a great asset to the state of Pennsylvania.  If he did actively and knowingly cover up a crime, that would matter less, but that's not what his and McQueary's statements indicate.  

                    "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                    by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 05:59:49 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I guess that's my point. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Kristjan Wager, i like bbq

                      I think it's really hard to persuade you that anyone in authority "knowingly" does anything.  Failure to make a good faith effort to know is the exact same as knowing, when you have a responsibility.

                      Paterno didn't want to know Sandusky raped little boys.  Well, guess who also didn't want to know that?  The boys he raped.  We don't get a pass because truth is unpleasant.  In fact, that's my fricking point.  And accusing me of "making things up" is tremendously Orwellian.

                      The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                      "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                      by Punditus Maximus on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 06:34:51 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Your logic is circular (0+ / 0-)

                        You assume "knowingly" to argue for that very issue i think isnt sufficiently proven.  My view is that "authority" doesnt factor in except where i think he should have lost his job depite not breaking the law.  So, the exact opposite.  You also overlook the notion of degrees of culpability from strict liability thru intent.  It's only because of his power that his negigence is something i care about, but you treat it as scienter.  That's made up, and your use of the term orwellian is orwellian.    I tried to be civil in my last reply, abut really just leave me alone.  Be as wrong as you want about what i think, but do it quietly.  

                        "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                        by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 06:44:50 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Nope! (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Kristjan Wager, i like bbq

                          You totally don't have the right to censor me.  You will have to live with your lack of power.

                          The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                          "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                          by Punditus Maximus on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 07:07:40 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  It's a simple request (0+ / 0-)

                            im thru with you. This comment confirms you argue like a child.  

                            "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                            by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 08:05:34 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You know a lot of children (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kristjan Wager, i like bbq

                            who are familiar with power dynamics and inappropriate attempts to censor?

                            Because those kids sound awesome.  You should spend time with them.

                            The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                            "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                            by Punditus Maximus on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 08:31:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                            by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 08:36:16 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Are you seriously responding (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kristjan Wager, i like bbq

                            to tell me you aren't responding?  Seriously, just tell me you want me to let you have the last word as a gift, and I will totally give it to you.

                            The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                            "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                            by Punditus Maximus on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 08:38:21 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Eom (0+ / 0-)

                            "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                            by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 08:44:37 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So close. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            i like bbq

                            When the student is ready, the teacher appears.

                            The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                            "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                            by Punditus Maximus on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 08:46:49 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  N/t (0+ / 0-)

                            "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                            by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 08:49:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  oh and for the last fucking time (0+ / 0-)

                            i am not censoring you, and there are any number of points you can feel free to make.  i've stopped correcting them.  any point you want to make about obama or paterno or betty white, go ahead.  but please do not reply to me ever again, and do not mention make statements about me in reply to others should we happen upon the same thread.  is that too fucking painful for you?  or can't you make an argument without trying to turn it into some kind of ad hominem.  you are the one who needs to accept that some people disagree.  i didn't initiate any discussions with you, btw, and strictly speaking, you barely engaged with anything i said versus what you imagined my reasons for saying them might possibly be.  so, since you are too dense to figure it out, if you do not or cannot abide by this simple request of mine, i will reply with a n/t.  if someone asks why, i will say because have finished dealing with you.  you can say whatever you want.  and it will be wrong.  

                            "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                            by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 09:03:28 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yeah, but at least I (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kristjan Wager

                            will be able to find the shift key on my keyboard.

                            Dude, someone called you on a BS point and you lost your shit.  I got recs and you got recs, so some folks agree with you and some folks agree with me.  You're correct that you're not censoring me, but you've made clear that that's because of lack of opportunity, not lack of desire.

                            I'm happy to bring this little encounter to a close, as there's no light being generated.  But the bit where you started asserting was the bit where my heels dug in.  You're not the goddamn boss of me, and I hope you don't treat the people you are the boss of the way you tried to treat me.

                            The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                            "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                            by Punditus Maximus on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 09:54:54 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  speaking of bs points and losing shit . . . (0+ / 0-)

                            "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                            by Loge on Mon Jan 23, 2012 at 06:07:53 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

              •  That's such an awesome attitude (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ginmar

                for a progressive, or even a liberal, isn't it?

                •  i don't think PM (0+ / 0-)

                  has any credibility left to define liberalism:  http://www.dailykos.com/...

                  Reality has a liberal bias, and some of the attacks on Paterno do not.  And although Paterno himself was a Republican, he did more than anyone to make Pennsylvania's flagship state university an academic leader, when it was a cow school when he was hired as an assistant to Rip Engle.  

                  But in general, you have a problem with a comment I make, reply to me.  You don't like football.   That doesn't mean you care any more about child molestation than people who do.  Paterno deservedly lost his job, but a thread about his death should also be about the rest of his life.  How's that for a liberal value?  I didn't know "string 'em up" was such a thing.

                  "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                  by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 11:47:39 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You keep trying to make this about me. (0+ / 0-)

                    It's not.  He's talking to you about you.

                    The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                    "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                    by Punditus Maximus on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 06:43:21 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Talkingto you about me, (0+ / 0-)

                      Which is rude.  and you made it about you when you played armchair shrink.  Paragraphs 2 and 3 were about paterno.

                      You bore me.

                      "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                      by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 06:52:02 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  That's the most patently false (0+ / 0-)

                        thing you've said so far.  You seem compelled to respond to me.

                        The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                        "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                        by Punditus Maximus on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 07:06:48 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  No, im tired of your bullshit (0+ / 0-)

                          it was merely exasperating at first but my only response to you from here on out is go away.  

                          "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                          by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 08:07:22 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Look, this has become a power thing now. (0+ / 0-)

                            All you have to do to keep me from saying more things to you is . . . not respond.  You just have to accept that I have a different interpretation of these events from you, and that I don't view you as having the authority to censor my interpretation.

                            But this business of trying to repeatedly and constantly assert authority you don't have is, well, irrational.  You really are going to have to live with the fact that some guy on the internet thinks you're wrong and doesn't care if you disagree with him, because he doesn't find your argument persuasive.

                            http://xkcd.com/...

                            The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                            "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                            by Punditus Maximus on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 08:34:26 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nt (0+ / 0-)

                            "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                            by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 08:43:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

            •  No worries nt (0+ / 0-)

              "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

              by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 10:48:39 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  "Try to calm down" (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kristjan Wager, i like bbq

              Not a good thing to say to anybody, especially when people are whining that it's unfair to hold the top dog responsible for the child rape he was informed of YEARS ago.  

              •  respond to me (0+ / 0-)

                if you want to mischaracterize my comments.  Look at BoiseBlue's comment.  Or shit, actually read mine.  He had to be fired.  I choose not to exaggerate his proven culpability or to indulge personal outrage on the day of his death.  His passing isn't really about you.  

                "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                by Loge on Sun Jan 22, 2012 at 04:43:24 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

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