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View Diary: More Proof It's Not Just Abortion They're After (196 comments)

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  •  So you put the rights of the fetus (15+ / 0-)

    above the rights of the woman, reducing her to the status of a living incubator. How is that not a human rights violation as well, especially taken into account the health consequences I mentioned in my diary? At the extreme, it could be considered making the woman a slave, or indentured servant at least, to the fetus. If that woman is taking medications that would have a negative impact on fetal development, she'd have to stop taking them, putting her health even more at risk.

    Now to try to end the wars we ask our gay and straight soldiers to fight. -- Chris Hayes (modified)

    by Cali Scribe on Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 03:07:34 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  The old chicken or the egg question...OY! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cali Scribe, Alexandra Lynch

      "Time is for careful people, not passionate ones."

      "Life without emotions is like an engine without fuel."

      by roseeriter on Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 03:25:57 AM PST

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    •  Your logic works the other way, too (0+ / 0-)

      That is, putting the rights of the mother above the rights of the child.  You say fetus, I say child.  I get it.

      In this case then we revert to the particulars -- the right to life versus the right to privacy.  I think a compelling case can be made that when these two rights are in opposition to each other, the right to life takes precedence.  Some people such as yourself see it the other way.  

      I'm not reaching into the very specific, and highly unusual case where the mother's life itself is in danger by the pregnancy.  Clearly then we have an equitable comparison.  But in the 99+% of other pregnancy terminations, the child's right to live ranks above all.

      Again, I understand that there are really people out there who would promote the subjugation of women, and use this issue as one of their tools.  But believing in the right to live does not inherently lead one to adopt that philosophy, which you seem to be implying.

      •  Nice to know that women (14+ / 0-)

        are second-class to the fetus -- and that is the technical term; it's not a "child" until birth in medical terminology. (Even then, it's technically an "infant".) So a woman gets raped...and gets the 9-month sentence of carrying her rapist's offspring and all the fun that accompanies that, and the medical bills for the pre-natal care.

        I'd better sign off and go to bed, or my spouse is going to be out here with the blood pressure monitor. If my great-nieces are going to make me a great-great aunt, I want it to be on their terms and their choice, not yours, not mine, not anyone else's.

        Now to try to end the wars we ask our gay and straight soldiers to fight. -- Chris Hayes (modified)

        by Cali Scribe on Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 03:44:05 AM PST

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        •  It's not women vs. the child, (0+ / 0-)

          it's the right to life vs. any other human right that we believe in, privacy in this case.

          How medical communities choose to define things in their textbooks is not really relevant here.  Medicine doesn't claim to define when personhood begins.

          Rape is a horrible event, but does not invalidate the life of the child that could result from such a scenario.  

          I too would like for everyone's children to come on their general terms, but it doesn't always work that way.  When it doesn't, I believe in respecting the life of the unplanned child.

          •  then all females of child-bearing age (6+ / 0-)

            should be on birth control, if for no other reason than to protect them against having their lives ruined due to rape.

            •  If we had a society based on science (5+ / 0-)

              instead of profit, there could be research into developing even better birth control methods, and develop them for both men and women. Because indeed, this diary is not abortion, but about contraception.

              Now to try to end the wars we ask our gay and straight soldiers to fight. -- Chris Hayes (modified)

              by Cali Scribe on Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 10:01:41 AM PST

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              •  It's technically quite difficult, I believe (0+ / 0-)

                to try to accomplish a comparable pill-based birth control for men, for the reasons of there being zillions of sperm to control.

                There's no market for this anyway because men can use condoms, which carry no worries about messing with the body's chemistry.

                •  Condoms slip. Condoms break. (0+ / 0-)

                  Condoms have an inferior record as "sole" contraceptive method, and that's assuming perfect use. In practice they're not nearly as effective as other methods and MUST be combined with, at the very least, spermicidal, foam or gel on the woman's part.

                  All that fussing around really kills the spontaneity, ya know. (And since when - EVER - would a RAPIST carry a condom?)

                  I haven't heard such transparent idiocy since the 1960's.

                  Mundus vult decipi, decipiatur

                  by TheOtherMaven on Fri Jan 27, 2012 at 09:07:29 AM PST

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          •  unplanned child?!?!?!?! (9+ / 0-)

            Rape isn't about planned or unplanned pregnancy!!!!

            You are rationalizing rape and supporting it's outcome.

            Leave the decisions up to me and my doctor.  

            My vagina and my life is mine, not the politicians, not the rapists and not yours.

            Stop supporting, validating and rationalizing Pro-Rape!

            "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." ~Jimi Hendrix

            by Damnit Janet on Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 07:10:41 AM PST

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            •  Compulsory Pregnancy Is Rape. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OldDragon, Damnit Janet

              What the Forced Birth movement advocated is actually a kind of rape against women by forcing us to carry unwanted pregnancies to term. Sadly, there are some women who seek to inflict this oppression on other women as well. Such women are traitors to other women. But it does not make this movement any less Anti-Woman just because there are some women in it.

              If Not Us, Who,..... If Not Now, When?

              by VirginiaBlue on Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 11:32:09 AM PST

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              •  Absolutely agree with you (0+ / 0-)

                Any time you force a person to do something against their will and against their own health or future/plans - is violent and brutal.

                It was mostly women who I did not find support from when I needed strong women the most in my life.  

                Nowadays I only allow strong, progressive women in my life.  :)

                "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." ~Jimi Hendrix

                by Damnit Janet on Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 07:42:01 PM PST

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                •  I'm fond of strong, progressive women (0+ / 0-)

                  I think though that by focusing exclusively on the "compulsory pregnancy" that you are not addressing the real elephant in the room, namely that another person's  life is at stake.

                  It's just a hard issue, and two fundamental interests are in conflict.  The entire reason I wrote the original comment was to posit that there are reasonable arguments in favor of life that have nothing to do with being anti-women.  Namely, that abortion is seen by many as a human rights violation.  

                  •  RAPE (0+ / 0-)

                    and FORCED PREGNACY are also human rights violations.

                    Your desire to ensure that after I am raped or my daughter is raped that we undergo the full pregnancy demonstrates that you have no idea at all what is humane.

                    You are the one who is in denial.  

                    Your are the elephant in the room.

                    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." ~Jimi Hendrix

                    by Damnit Janet on Fri Jan 27, 2012 at 08:13:33 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Elephant? Try a Woolly Mammoth! n/t (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Damnit Janet

                      Mundus vult decipi, decipiatur

                      by TheOtherMaven on Fri Jan 27, 2012 at 09:08:52 AM PST

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                      •  They are just hiding (0+ / 0-)

                        behind a label they call, "human rights" when it's just Bullshit cowardice and hatred.

                        They are trying to rape women AGAIN after they've been raped with their forced birther crap.

                        I can't be "civilized" because this triggers so much within me.  

                        "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." ~Jimi Hendrix

                        by Damnit Janet on Fri Jan 27, 2012 at 04:58:50 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Yeah, and abolitionists were full of BS too (0+ / 0-)

                          You don't see it as "human rights", just like they didn't see it that way in the 19th century either.  Got to protect one right over another.

                          "Cowardice" -- afraid of the moral consequences of declaring an unborn child a human being, when all logical controls would point that way

                          "Hatred" -- what you feel towards innocent children

            •  And that's how not to have a civilized discussion (0+ / 0-)

              Good thing for your beliefs that I'm not ascribing your words to the rest of its adherents.

              •  Nothing civilized about you (0+ / 0-)

                demanding that after a woman is raped that they should be forced to carry out the pregnancy.

                Rape is not civilized and rape is a human rights violation.

                My healing after a brutal attack and my decisions after being raped have NOTHING to do with your "rationals"

                As you stand with the anti-abortionists and hold hands with the people who demand that women and girls are just incubators it is you have lost your humanity.  

                "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." ~Jimi Hendrix

                by Damnit Janet on Fri Jan 27, 2012 at 08:16:35 AM PST

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          •  Still, a Woman Has the Right to Her Own Body... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OldDragon

            ......fetuses do not have more right to a woman's body than the woman herself. To force the woman to do so is a form of rape by forcing her to have her body used by someone else (in this case, the fetus) against her will. Forcing the woman to carry a tragic, unwanted pregnancy to term against her will also constitutes a form of involuntary servitude in violation of the 13th Amendment.

            If Not Us, Who,..... If Not Now, When?

            by VirginiaBlue on Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 11:29:56 AM PST

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      •  Pregnancy isn't a zit. (6+ / 0-)

        It is a dangerous to the Mother right up to and including the birth.

        Your sole piece of evidence that the fetus is MORE important is, "Cuz God says so."

        •  I haven't appealed to God at all, (0+ / 0-)

          Nor have I used the word "Cuz".  Is that supposed to imply something about my level of education?

          In fact, I haven't pointed out any 'evidence', but rather stated a pretty generic belief that life is a more fundamental human right than all others.  

          •  Frankly, you're just bullshitting (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Alexandra Lynch

            And you are leaving 52% of the human race COMPLETELY OUT OF THE EQUATION.

            What you are advocating, stated bluntly and baldly, is that women do not have any right to life between the ages of ~12 and ~55.

            Between those ages she is a potential slave to any hypothetical fertilized blastocyst that may or may not develop. Between those ages, her so-called "right to life" is totally, absolutely contingent on her never ever ever being exposed to sperm under any circumstances whatsoever.

            THIS is what you are saying when you spew that drivel about "right to life".

            Mundus vult decipi, decipiatur

            by TheOtherMaven on Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 01:41:30 PM PST

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            •  I don't think you understand what "life" means (0+ / 0-)

              You're talking about a woman's reproductive freedom.

              I'm talking about a child's right to not have their life terminated.

              The two are in conflict in abortion, and in my views, the latter should be held higher.  I respect your position that the former should be held higher.  I'm not bullshitting you.

              •  But it IS bullshit!!!!! (0+ / 0-)

                You ARE effectively saying that WOMEN HAVE NO RIGHTS!!!!!!!

                You ARE effectively advocating slavery for every human being who has the "misfortune" of having XX chromosomes.

                You ARE in exactly the same legal position (wrong and/or insane) of someone who argues that a homeowner has NO right of self-defense against an intruding robber. (There are "rights" in conflict there too, but the rights of the property owner are generally held to supersede the rights of the robber.

                You are arguing a position for which there is NO POSSIBLE RATIONAL BASIS.

                Your position and your monicker are both bullshit. And you're a MAN, aren't you? YOU will never have to worry. YOU don't give a shit about any of your female relatives or any female you may ever form a relationship with (and with THOSE attitudes I doubt you ever will - any self-respecting woman would RUN, not walk, as fast and as far away from you as she could get).

                Or else you're just trolling to see how much shit you can stir up,and if that's the case, you're doing a damn good job. Now crawl back under your bridge.

                Mundus vult decipi, decipiatur

                by TheOtherMaven on Fri Jan 27, 2012 at 08:46:40 AM PST

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    •  Thank You. Very Well Said. (0+ / 0-)

      If Not Us, Who,..... If Not Now, When?

      by VirginiaBlue on Thu Jan 26, 2012 at 11:27:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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