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View Diary: Why I Vote For Democrats: To Win Elections (212 comments)

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  •  chait (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BradyB, joanneleon

    was an iraq war cheerleader, and he was very critical of those of us who opposed the invasion. what he has to say about liberals is irrelevant, and it's interesting that some people continue to cite such a disreputable source to criticize liberals.

    and i think you're flatly wrong about the politics of keystone. i know some environmentalists who are hardcore obama supporters who said keystone was their line in the sand. some members of this very blogging community. i also repeat that i think voters, in general, will appreciate a president who stood up to oil industry bullying.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Sun Jan 29, 2012 at 08:21:43 AM PST

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    •  Attacking the messenger? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dragon5616

      I thought Chait's piece contained some worthwhile insights from his standpoint.  And on HuffPo, Bob Cesca more succinctly hashed over the "Obamabot" syndrome.
      I hope you're right in that Obama will get credit with the public for standing up to the oil industry, but I'm just afraid that's not the way the media spun the story.  As I said, I haven't seen a survey on it, but I would be willing to bet that the man on the street took away the perception that Obama caved in to the Sierra Club and the tree huggers and killed 20,000 Murkin jobs.  And I really doubt that hardly anyone was aware that the pipeline was intended to deliver oil to the Gulf for export to foreign markets, not American use.
      In any case, I used the Sierra Club petition to thank President Obama for taking a stand on Keystone and to let him know we have his back on this issue.
      I think this is the area where many on DK have it backwards, thinking that by typing out their dissatisfaction on this site they're somehow putting pressure on President Obama.  I would like to know precisely how that works, explained to me step by step.
      I think what does work is letting the President know directly where we stand on specific issues, like Keystone.  If he knows he has the numbers behind him, he is more likely to choose that battle in which to go up against the Rs.  Too many here assume that Obama is predisposed to a corporate agenda somehow, and I totally disagree.
      I was pleased with DK for providing a vehicle to send a thank-you to the President for his recess appointment of Richard Cordray, which I did also.
      Perhaps I've pounding the message in my sig line for so long now that it's getting some traction around here?
      One can hope.
      Take care, LL

      Unfortunately, President Obama doesn't have time to read DK, so contact him here: The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20500 (Postcards, not letters! Please give your email address) -- 202-456-1111 -- FAX: 202-456-2461

      by My Left Behind on Sun Jan 29, 2012 at 08:58:21 AM PST

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      •  some messengers (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BradyB

        have no credibility. i don't consider joe lieberman or peggy noonan a credible source of criticism of liberals, either.

        i realize how the media spun the story, i just don't think that spin resonated. i'm guessing only a very small percentage of voters even know about keystone, but i'm certain that the vast majority who do, and the even vaster majority who are politically motivated by it, strongly approve of the president's decision.

        and i'm very glad to hear you signed the sierra club petition. the president deserves thanks. and the issue isn't completely dead. we need to keep our focus on it, to lobby him, and to remind him that we will have his back in a very big way if he kills it altogether.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Sun Jan 29, 2012 at 09:10:59 AM PST

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        •  Please remember that "lobbying" Obama (0+ / 0-)

          is not accomplished in any way by merely typing out criticism on a liberal blog site.  He doesn't have time to read Daily Kos.  I hope you signed the Sierra Club petition also, and thanked the President for his recess appointment of Cordray.
          And I think that you're being evasive by ignoring all of Chait's points because he was wrong on Iraq, and to equate him with Lieberman or Noonan is a stretch.
          We disagree on how the media spin of Keystone resonated.  You don't have polls to substantiate your gut feeling, and neither do I.  But from what I observed, conservatives had a picnic with it, and they scored against Obama.  If you Google "Obama Keystone," what you get is a ton of articles criticizing Obama from the right (USNews said Obama's decision was a "gift to China") and a bunch of articles from progressive sites expressing either distrust or a reserved "let's wait and see what happens next" attitude, and little or no outright praise or recognition.  Some thanks Obama got.

          Progressives need to understand that if Obama does everything they want him to do, he'll be an ex-president.  If you peruse Milt Shook's list, you'll see many accomplishments that managed to escape the mainstream media's radar, avoiding not only criticism by conservatives, but also praise and recognition by progressives.

          Unfortunately, President Obama doesn't have time to read DK, so contact him here: The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20500 (Postcards, not letters! Please give your email address) -- 202-456-1111 -- FAX: 202-456-2461

          by My Left Behind on Sun Jan 29, 2012 at 10:07:21 AM PST

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          •  there is nothing chait can say (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BradyB, joanneleon

            that would interest me. he criticized liberals for opposing bush's iraq invasion. he and his criticism of liberals have no credibility.

            and right wing criticism of obama on keystone also is irrelevant. had he approved it they'd have just pivoted to criticizing him for banning uranium mining in the grand canyon or something else. we're talking about the political impact, and there is no evidence- none- that keystone hurt him with swing voters. conservatives hated him for it, but they hate him anyway. environmentalists, however, would have been very upset had he approved it and they are greatly appreciative that he didn't.

            and the lobbying against keystone on this blog certainly helped. bill mckibben used this blog to organize and get out the word, including the protest at the white house. the president knew he would seriously alienate core democratic voters if he had approved it.

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Sun Jan 29, 2012 at 11:13:32 AM PST

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            •  Yes, Kos diaries that organize are effective (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dragon5616

              As are those that urge readers to take specific concrete action. Daily Kos petitions and Warren fundraising emails are very worthwhile also.
              I would like to see more of that.  Typing out rants without specific calls to action are useless and actually counterproductive.
              You're ignoring the Google results that show overwhelming coverage media coverage that was negative regarding Obama's Keystone decision.  That it is "irrelevant" is beside the point.  It was out there for consumption.

              Just like conservatives, there are progressives will never be satisfied with Obama no matter what he does.  Chait pointed out that in his time FDR was attacked from the left as well:

              Compared with other Democratic presidents, Roosevelt enjoyed relatively friendly relations with liberals, but there nonetheless existed a left opposition during his time, mostly of socialists and communists, who criticized him relentlessly. Progressive senator Burton Wheeler complained that FDR, “for all his fine talk, really preferred conservatives to progressives.” And actually, the Roosevelt era had the same pattern we see today, of liberals angry with the administration’s compromises, and the administration angry in turn at the liberals. In 1935, Roosevelt adviser Rex Tugwell groused of the liberals, “They complain incessantly that the administration is moving into the conservative camp, but do nothing to keep it from going there.”

              Do you think internment of Japanese-Americans pleased liberals?
              I sometimes think that Obama wishes he could pull certain progressive camps aside into an unbugged room and explain political reality to them.  
              Daily Kos was a very valuable tool during the Bush administration, but now I think DK might be more helpful to Republicans than Democrats, unless we focus less on idle criticism and more on productive organizing and calls to specific action.

              Unfortunately, President Obama doesn't have time to read DK, so contact him here: The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20500 (Postcards, not letters! Please give your email address) -- 202-456-1111 -- FAX: 202-456-2461

              by My Left Behind on Sun Jan 29, 2012 at 11:39:07 AM PST

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              •  again (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BradyB

                the media coverage is irrelevant unless it moves voters. environmentalists were moved. there is no evidence that anyone else was.

                and chait is an idiot. in fdr's time the left was socialists and communists. the left in fdr's time was radically different than the left of today.

                The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                by Laurence Lewis on Sun Jan 29, 2012 at 11:43:07 AM PST

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