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View Diary: Occupy Oakland:Oakland Police Department Blatantly Lies About IED's (47 comments)

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  •  and that is well known (4+ / 0-)

    A smarter police response would have been blaring blame at black block, emphasizing the awkward position it puts them in trying to police peaceful protests while a violent minority destroy civility for others. Except that would have been informed - whoops! Can't have that, huh?

    •  that would be the obvious thing to do (2+ / 0-)

       if you actually had

           a) a Black Bloc that actually was determined to provoke and initiate acts of violence whatever the police do, and

           b) a police department that did not wish to attack peaceful protestors as a way of discouraging political opposition.

      The problem is not once, ever, have the police ever adopted the strategy you recommend, despite it being obvious. Ever occur to you to ask why? Do you really think that ever single time every police department in America is guilty of exactly the same sort of cluelessness?

      Or might it be that cops actually do attack non-violent protestors for political reasons and Black Blocs tend to form because people get angry about it - and angry about people like you who make excuses for them and always come up with some way to blame the victims.

      That might for instance explain why Oakland, which has one of the most notoriously violent police forces in the country, also has the biggest Black Bloc

      •  The Problem (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        philipmerrill, G2geek

        Is when they are not local and get arrested: "Outside Agitators".

        But then, free expression and/or civil disobedience is ultimately a personal choice, wherever, whenever, no?

        And, ultimately, decisions to shoot tear gas and/or rubber bullets.

        Politics: 2 or more people.

        What about my Daughter's future?

        by koNko on Sun Jan 29, 2012 at 10:34:10 AM PST

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      •  yeah, I thought of that (0+ / 0-)

        Actually, I also assumed some of the agitators were undercover law enforcement. I also assume the play is dictated by 1%-ers, who are the real intended audience for the press releases. But if public regard for police was the goal of the PR, they could at least issue more well-informed and sophisticated press releases even if their actions were corrupt all the same. I still say the PR language was primitive, misguided, and ill-informed.

        •  all it takes is 1 provocateur and a dozen hotheads (0+ / 0-)

          ... to start a riot.

          The hotheads need to take responsibility for the fact that they've been playing into provocateurs' hands.  And they need to take responsibility for their own behavior rather than bleat the usual BS about "those people made me do it."

          Nobody made them do anything, unless they have no free will of their own.  
          Or perhaps they're all provocateurs.  

          "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Sun Jan 29, 2012 at 09:31:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  you still seem to think (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            An Affirming Flame

            that the protestors started it and the police responded

            since every time the Oakland police claimed this in the past it later ensued that they were lying, why are you accepting their story now and assuming some "hothead" provoked them?

            this is what I don't understand. We go through this again and again. The police tell one story. The protestors tell another. You guys believe the police. Evidence is produced which shows the police were flagrantly lying. Another event. The police tell one story. The protestors tell another. You guys still believe the police. Evidence is produced which shows the police were flagrantly lying. Another event. The police tell one story. The protestors tell another. You guys still believe the police. Evidence is produced which shows the police were flagrantly lying....

            when are you going to learn?

            •  IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO STARTED IT, DAMMIT! (0+ / 0-)

              What matters, the ONLY thing that we have control over, is how WE conduct OURSELVES.

              That means no provocation, no throwing shit, no smashing shit, no spraypainting on shit.  No calling "PIGS!," no burning flags, no other violent rhetoric.  And it damn well also ought to mean no drinking or other drugs at protests, because people whose brains are addled can't be counted on to handle themselves in rapidly-changing situations.  

              The only legitimate purposes of protests are a) to get elected officials to change policies, b) to change voters' opinions and win votes to replace those elected officials, c) to change consumers' behaviors (such as by moving their money out of BofA and into credit unions), d) to encourage more people to join a specific cause, or d) with peaceful civil disobedience, to obtain court judgements that force elected officials to change policies.  

              Option (a) has been blown as far as Oakland city gov is concerned.  Option (b) is rapidly losing ground with every riot that breaks out.  

              When a tactic doesn't work, change the damn tactic.  To keep repeating a failed tactic over and over again is a sign of being insane, or having a different agenda.  Like the agenda of provoking a Tienenman Square affair in order to trigger The Revolution.  Or the agenda of provoking riots to the point of persuading voters to vote Republican.  And those are not legitimate goals, all the more so when they're being done with unsuspecting people as pawns.

              Protest, like poetry, isn't about self-expression.  It's about using communication in a precise manner to convey an intended message.  

              But here's a little secret: the message that's conveyed, is assumed to be the message that's intended.

              "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

              by G2geek on Sun Jan 29, 2012 at 11:50:35 PM PST

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          •  I maintain my primary source of frustration with (0+ / 0-)

            violence is that it's used in an otherwise peaceful protest. IF the black block wants to start it's own shit, they should get their own fucking protest and call it "smash shit 2012." not "occupy oakland" these assholes hijack otherwise peaceful movements which in turn allows the media to blame violence on Occupy, thus discrediting the movement. IT wouldn't be nearly as detrimental if these "violent assholes" did us the decency of at least getting their own protest instead of hijacking an already existing one, and that, my friend, is why I currently hate them.

            I Can sympathize, with the emotional response of said individuals. I too am EXTREMELY frustrated.. But I Will say this: there is a thick line between fantasy and action.  While I might ildly wish I could smash some shit, I Have never, and will never actually do it, and even if I did I would never, hurt Actual people, just property. all of that said I condemn said tactics, just because I can sympathize with the rage behind them doesn't mean I personally condone them. And that's been a very hard line for me to personally walk, as I'm sure you saw evidenced in the message I Sent you (For which I apologize)

            I still strongly believe that what makes the black block so toxic is that they don't start their own movement, they hijack existing ones, for which I cannot forgive them.

            http://www.actblue.com/page/accountabilitynow If the dnc dscc or dccc send you mailers, send that link back to them and tell them you won't send money to people who defend democrats who betray progressive principals! up yours!

            by daeros on Mon Jan 30, 2012 at 08:33:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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