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View Diary: National Lawyers' Guild Condemns Oakland For Police Violence (59 comments)

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  •  thank you for posting this... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jpmassar

    this is unacceptable by any standards!

    what does bother me a great deal is how much time is spent defending the use of violence by the OTHER side, though.

    we HAVE to find consensus to stop this mayhem.  to have the moral high ground to go after the oakland pd, we need to make sure they have no excuses for their behavior.

    oakland pd has had problems for years - like the l.a.p.d.

    distractions from a small (VERY small) number of protesters who give excuse to the malfeasance of SOME of the o.p.d. have to stop, too!

    still, i'm glad to see the lawyers involved - that always makes a difference - albeit slowly.

    Is GlowNZ back yet?

    by edrie on Mon Jan 30, 2012 at 05:17:57 PM PST

    •  I understand the sentiment but I don't understand (0+ / 0-)

      the logic.

      This is like saying "Murders, and murderers are horrible; we have to stop all murders."

      Society has been trying to stop murders for all of its existence.  We haven't succeeded.

      Why does anyone think that in a crowd of thousands of people there is any way or any possibility of stopping a few random people who like to do crazy shit from doing crazy shit?

      We either have to accept that this sort of stuff is going to happen (in the same way we despise, but realize, that murders are going to happen given the nature of humans), or we have to give up our right to protest.

      •  did it happen in wisconsin? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        isabelle hayes

        violence is NOT an acceptable byproduct.  it is up to the movement's (non)leaders to make that clear.  disassociating from the black bloc, the la rouchies, the trouble makers means telling them they are not welcome and then, if necessary, making sure they are held accountable.

        does that mean assisting the police when people break windows and destroy property?  imho, yes.

        that is the only way to isolate those who would destroy this movement in an attempt to usurp it.

        if folks are not comfortable with pointing out those who are vandalizing, then stop defending their actions on blogs such as this one.

        condemn the behavior - make it perfectly clear that they do NOT represent this movement and they are NOT welcome as participants.

        is that happening?  nope.  there is a hard core group on this site defending the use of violence - many of those are self-proclaimed anarchists who talk of "revolution".

        until this type of "talk" is dismissed as the crap that it is, the ows and the oo movement will continue to drain public support until it is  tiny fraction of people who do not at all represent the 99% of americans they claim to be defending.

        i am seriously considering writing a diary discussing exactly how and why this site is even DEBATING the validity of violence by protesters!  that is NOT acceptable by any standard for the majority of members here - and i hardly think that markos advocates the use of violence in these "showdowns" with the police.

        the message has already been lost when even international coverage is focusing on the destruction instead of the original message.

        any parallels draws to the arab spring are another false meme that SHOULD be challenged every time it is raised.

        there IS no comparison.  period!

        i am disturbed by this turn of the dialogue on this site and i am seeing more and more people speaking out and saying the same thing that i'm saying (and often attacked for it).

        we have a problem, houston, and it's name is occupy - a perversion of the original goals.

        that is a damned shame - to lose the momentum at this time - an election cycle.  this turn of events is a wasted opportunity!

        Is GlowNZ back yet?

        by edrie on Mon Jan 30, 2012 at 11:29:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Either you're missing my point, (0+ / 0-)

          or deliberately ignoring it.

          Let me be clear. There may be some who condone violence in various diaries, but I have never and do not condone it.  I'm not sure whether you were implying I was or not.

          You ask "did it happen in Wisconsin."  

          And of course it did not.  But it didn't happen because the police did not initiate it, whereas in Oakland the police initiated it.

          What do you think would have happened had the police started out by tear gassing and beating 25,000 people who had been surrounding the Wisconsin Capitol?  Do you think there might have been a violent aftermath to that?  

          What do you think would have happened if the Wisconsin police had nearly killed, say, Michael Moore, as he marched with the protesters one day?  

          What would have happened is that right now we would be discussing the violence in Wisconsin and how it has to stop and how it is horrible that some people defend violence.

          If you fail to understand why what is happening is happening, then it becomes almost impossible to discuss how it might be brought to a halt.  You can't just run around and say "this must stop!" (well, you can, but you might as well run around and say the moon is made of bleu cheese, or that "we must stop all murders!")

          There are two reasons violence is happening.  We know, historically, that there are people in almost every large protest (Wisconsin in 2011 and the Dec 12 Port Shutdown in Oakland excepted) who like to mess shit up. This is simply a fact.  I asked you, given this, do we give up our right to have large protests or not? You did not answer.

          The other reason violence is happening in Oakland is because, on October 25th, the Oakland Police under instructions from the Oakland City Government initiated violence against its own citizens, who had not been violent in any way.  Now, I'm not condoning the tit-for-tat.  I'm explaining to you why what has happened happened.  

          Is there some way to cause this to be healed? I don't know. As long as the OPD is totally out of control, coupled with more and more people being radicalized because the OPD is totally out of control, the spiral seems to be going upwards, not downwards.

          It started to go downwards on December 12th, when absolutely no violence occurred even though 5000+ people were involved because the police were told to back off.  That should be a clue as to how to turn down the temperature.  

          But then Quan went and called the protest "economic violence", instead of praising people for being non-violent as she was going to (in her prepared remarks).  That could have been the start of a detente, but Quan instead chose to inflame people.   Had Quan and the City reached out at that point to more moderate OO'ers things might have turned out quite differently than they did this weekend.

          I don't have any answers.

          •  jpm, i know you are not the one condoning (0+ / 0-)

            violence - i've read your diaries when i've not read others.

            the "you" i am using is more universal than directed to you and i hope you will forgive me if i appeared to imply that you are the problem here.

            i just posted a long answer to AoT on this - and i agree with you that the real issue is how to stop it now.

            one of the first things that can be done is for people on this blog (NOT you, btw, but others who are very vocal anarchists) to STOP saying that violence is a means to an end and is acceptable!

            as long as there is an audience, there will be actors playing to that audience.

            the same applies to the far right wingnuts who express extreme views - they have an audience that accepts those views as valid.

            we, as a whole, MUST decry ALL violence - from both sides!  we MUST say unequivocally that breaking into  buildings, setting fires, breaking windows, rock throwing are NOT acceptable within the movement and that those who engage in such behavior will be publicly denounced by the movement.

            also, if the intent is to protest and be arrested, then sit the hell down and BE arrested - running and playing "tag" with police officers and trying to break away will only cause the officers to then try to "regain control" by any means possible.

            go in peace and if there is violence, let it ALL come from the other side.

            kettling?  well, sit down and wait.  don't move.  don't speak.  say more in silence than in the screeching, screaming, hysterical yelling of words like "SHAME! SHAME!" or "YOU FUCKING PIG" - that doesn't win support from those watching on the outside world.

            if you want to know how to effectively change the society - go watch the footage of the king marches - the responses to those crowds to overt brutality - they sat and sang and did NOT respond.  responding only gives the police justification for the behavior they engage in.

            is opd out of control?  yes.  is the crowd out of control?  well, SOME of them are!  therein lies the problem.  WHO is going to take control of this message?  who is going to INFLUENCE this movement?

            those who come in peace - and keep on coming until there is not stopping them.

            Is GlowNZ back yet?

            by edrie on Tue Jan 31, 2012 at 10:40:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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