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View Diary: Dear Mr. Matthews: (264 comments)

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  •  Honestly, I think that this diary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    salmo, OllieGarkey

    makes good points but misses the big point.  It is fine to dismiss Chris Matthews but I think he has his finger on the real tension here.  As the polls have said, birth control is not an issue since most Catholics use birth control.  But Catholics don't believe that the church should have to stray from it's teachings - even if they don't follow them.  Just now, Chris Matthews, on Morning Joe, gave the OJ Simpson case as an analogy and I have to say, it resonated with me.  To this day, I think OJ killed his wife and should have been convicted, but as a black person, I so resented listening to white people talking about how dumb the jurors were - and I was aware of how black folks had historically gotten the short end of the stick in the justice system - and so I found myself defending a person who I personally detest and believe to be guilty!  (like with the OJ trial, there is a strong, aggregrived group dynamic at play here) Before I get flamed, I ask people to think about this analogy - in addition, I am sure that a way can be found to get contraceptive coverage for women at Catholic institutions without having the institution directly provide it - so this is not worth giving a hammer to conservatives nor losing an election over.

    •  How does this compare (4+ / 0-)

      to the OJ trial? Murder versus contraception? I'm not getting the connection.
      This isn't a religious issue, it's an employment issue. That's what the problem is, the Catholic church thinks they have the power to tell the US government how they want to treat their employees, and the government doesn't have a say, because of RELIGIOUS FREEDOM!!
       Except for the fact that over half of the states and many Catholic institutions already follow this law, it's been appealed to a federal appeals court and the church lost.

      If you can separate sex from procreation, you have given women the ability to participate in society on an equal basis with men. -Gloria Feldt

      by skohayes on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 04:45:21 AM PST

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      •  The analogy is in how two groups can see the same (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        salmo, skohayes, I love OCD

        issue very differently and how in the OJ case, blacks who would have otherwise been anti-OJ (there was no great love for OJ in the black community) got their backs up and felt they had to defend him when other the other group (whites, an unjust govt system) attacked.  I think this is how many Catholics may feel.  I am speaking to the psyche of the players here - not to whether they believe women should have contraception - obviously Catholics use birth control.  I'm not even speaking to religious freedom per se.  I agree that on the substance, this is an employment issue but is at risk of becoming a "tribal" issue - Catholic hierarchy and people vs. woman and people who really understand and believe the Constitution.  Perhaps I didn't explain myself well but I think you may have missed my point but I'll keep trying.

        •  That's because of the way (4+ / 0-)

          the right wing and the church are framing it.
          If it was really a "religious freedom" problem, why wasn't this raised back when the law was passed in 2000 and various states have had the law in place for over a decade:

          http://reproductiverights.org/...

          If you can separate sex from procreation, you have given women the ability to participate in society on an equal basis with men. -Gloria Feldt

          by skohayes on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 06:37:19 AM PST

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        •  I agree with you, CrissieP that it's (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          skohayes, CrissieP

          important not to demonize the entire opposition.  That's why I'm fine with Obama finding a work-around, assuming he does.

          As long as every woman who wants it has access to affordable birth control, I don't much care about the details.  

          As I wrote in another comment thread I hated it when Bush et al showed so clearly that they had nothing but disdain for people like me.  A President is in a different position than the Speaker of the House.  The president is president of the entire country, even of people who hate him.  As much as I dislike conservatives in general, the bishops in general, and pundits in particular,  they're all citizens.  He's their leader.  No one should take the job on if they don't understand that and honor it.  It makes me gag sometimes because I love to see bad guys pay, but I'd have no respect for President Obama if he was acting like Bush Blue.  

          I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

          by I love OCD on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 09:23:23 AM PST

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    •  Catholic institutions PAY $ to employees (5+ / 0-)

      that gets spent on BC and Abortions right now.

      Healthcare is part of a pay package and each individual gets to choose how she uses/spends her pay. That's the crux of the issue and it blows my mind that somehow we are coddling Catholic employers just because they are purchasing insurance (middle step) rather than handing cash to the employee. How are these different?

      Like Dorothy and Toto went over the rainbow to blow off Auntie Em...

      by JulieUnplugged on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 04:53:31 AM PST

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      •  Totally agree - also blows my mind (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OldDragon, I love OCD

        but I tend toward a worst case scenario view  - and I am petrified that being rigIllinois this issue will still result in a Republican pres and more Republican Reps and Senators.  I am going to use my religious freedom to pray that next month the jobs number is 275,000 and that an improving economy pushes this off of the front page.

        •  I don't see how that's going to happen. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CrissieP

          I see it as far more likely that Obama ends up with a huge majority among women voters, and there just aren't enough old scared white guys to overwhelm the rest of us.

          Remember that this controversy comes at the same time as the Komen fiasco.  All the Republicans are on record as being in favor of denying women the right to determine their own reproductive choices, and the wave of anger with Komen should tell you that women are really sick of this shit.

          I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

          by I love OCD on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 09:27:03 AM PST

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    •  You really don't get it... (8+ / 0-)

      Health insurance should provide the same coverage for ALL including birth control. That's why (thank god) there is a separation of church and state.
      If women or men choose NOT to use birth control based on their "religious" beliefs, then they simply don't have to use it. No one is telling them they must use birth control.

      •  You're wrong - I do get it - (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OldDragon, high uintas, I love OCD

        but I have no confidence that Jane and Joe Q public or the media get it enough to resist demagoguery by the right.  Again, I am commenting on the psyche of the people viewing this issue play out and how that may impact the election.  I believe that healthcare is a right and in Medicare for all - but I tend to give a lot of weight to facts on the ground.  I know that makes me an outlier here.  It would be great if the Catholic clergy were visible on this - I saw  the DC Cardinal on Moring Joe this morning and he totally stepped in it by talking about why birth control isn't part of healthcare.  Visible clergy would have the unintended consequence of moving people against them.

    •  I think, (5+ / 0-)

      as a practicing Catholic, that this analysis couldn't be more wrong.  First, is anyone asking the regular women of the Church?   The few women I have seen on these shows are conservative mouth pieces.  I will no more stick up for my Church in this than I did for the priests in the sex scandals.  The men of the Church have no credibility in matters of sex. The majority even conservatives, think this too.  This will die out.  It is an exaggerated kerfluffle, one that the msm has been waiting for, looking for, in their hyper emotional election coverage.  Balance and all.
      There may be some folk who feel the urge to back the Church because of tribal affiliation but not many according to my life experience.

      And she's good at appearing sane, I just want you to know. Winwood/Capaldi

      by tobendaro on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 06:12:50 AM PST

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    •  Thanks for that. I can see your comments are (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      I love OCD, CrissieP

      taking some heat, but you're spot on here.

      An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail.

      by OllieGarkey on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 08:11:51 AM PST

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